What if it's Mierin?

[Morrighan Daghdera]

If Ishamael is to be believed...

Daughter of the Night[/i]]Have you abandoned your oaths to the Great Lord of the Dark?...They are not so easily broken as the oaths to the Light you forsook, proclaiming your new master in the very Hall of the Servants" {Ishamael to Lanfear}

RE: Lanfear's propensity for random killing...if she is to be believed...

"I do not kill without cause, Lews Therin. I do not even hurt without cause" - Lanfear to Rand al'Thor (The Shadow Rising, A Breaking in the Three-Fold Land).

 

[Miya Kiyoshi]

And let's not forget, even Verin admitted to Egwene she's done some very nasty things she's not proud of either. I'd be willing to bet she's killed in the line of duty quite a bit (and maybe more than quite a bit considering her warder WAS a darkfriend. In the end he wanted to be redeemed but we don't really know when or how he decided that.)

Jodea Sedai does have a point about Ishy though... he is rather unappologetic in the least for his crimes so...

 

[Kiante Draktis]

Okay, firstly I found this while looking for another quote.

Q: Ishamael's corpse in The Dragon Reborn had only pits where his eyes and mouth once were. Was this a result of the True Power? If this is true, is the True Power the reason that Fades have no eyes, but some supernatural abilities?
RJ: The True Power is reason that Ishamael's corpse had no eyes, just as it was the reason that his eyes had been caverns of flame, but it's not precisely the reason that Fades have no eyes. The True Power as well as the One Power was used in creation of Trollocs, which proved to be uncontrollable and useless as soldiers until the first Myrddraal were born, throwbacks to the human stock used in creating Trollocs, but twisted by the inclusion of the True Power in making Trollocs.

So, if the Trollocs weren't useful without Myrddraal, it stands to reason that the war of the Shadow didn't start UNTIL they had discoverd Myrddraal. *nods*.

This is the other one, pertaining to Lanfear's personality:

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

So, yeah, if she was forcibly turned, she wouldn't have regretted her actions at all. Turning of your own free will allows you to regret it. Forcibly, not so much. I suppose it's possible. But unlikely. More likely they'd have to find a similar trick to just reverse the forcing, and then still convince them to turn over to the Light willingly. All of which COULD be done for Lanfear. Theoretically.

I've wondered if perhaps in that dream, at the end of this book, it COULD be the real Mierin. That is, the twisted version is in control most of the time, but there, in that dream, perhaps in all her regular dreams, the old, regular her could take control. Maybe.

 

[Alkeis Cha'ane]

that could explain her obsession with being in telerenriod in her dreams... plus her power obsession is.... obscene.. almost as if everything else were stripped away.. or atleast shifted away

 

[Miya Kiyoshi]

I agree. That quote is from RJ is one of the most compelling reasons to believe Lanfear was forced to the shadow. Look at it this way - could you fall in love with a crazy power obsessed woman like Lanfear? The woman is a fruit loop. I think for anyone to have given a darn about her, she HAD to have had some redeeming qualities as well... things we don't see at all anymore. This seems a strong case for believing she may be forced to the shadow.

Lews always knew she was powerhungry (you couldn't date someone and not eventually pick up on such a lust for power) but as Lanfear, those qualities were enhanced and all her good ones muted.

Great find Kiante!

 

[Kiante Draktis]

I try. *Bows*

 

[Murgabi]

I wonder if anyone gave it a thought as to why Cyndane has a coursouvra. We know Mogy FAILED. She was captured and taught so called new aes sedai old weaves. Mogy's actions may be called as traitor like. That's why her punishment - being mindtrapped through coursouvra. However, Lanfear herself didn't betray dark side. Well, her trick to Asmo could be called as betrayal, but we don't know if those actions are known to Dark side.

It may be a speculation by my part, but one may assume that Cyndane was mindtrapped just because Mierin/Lanfear was 13ed in the first place. So that, the part of Cyndane's soul which belonged to Mierin wouldn't resist to Dark side.

 

[Kiante Draktis]

Mmm, interesting point Murgabi.

 

[Murgabi]

Mmm, interesting point Murgabi.

This is a podcast where bunch of dragonmount.com geeks interview Maria Simons and Alan Romanczuk.
http://www.dragonmount.com/Podcast/Medi ... ge-079.mp3

The whole interview was done prior to ToM. And the whole interview is a bit crappy. A lot of non sense,
a little juice.

But In this interview, there is a question (to ease the search, i'll mention that the question is asked right around 1/3 of the podcast is played):
Question: Another question that I've always wondered about. Very long time anyways. The idea of a channeler being turned to the Dark one by the combination of 13 dreadlords or presumably black ajah and 13 myrdraal and I've speculated like everybody else who it might be but can you tell us without a RAFO have we yet met someone who has been turned against their will, and is there a way to detect it if there is.

Maria Simons answers: NOT THAT WE KNOW OF.

Question: we don't know that we've met anyone yet?

Maria Simons: Right.

 

[Miya Kiyoshi]

Also a good catch Murgabi. More fuel to the fires of doubt that Lanfear's loyalty to the shadow as anything more than what she was forced to do. Again, not saying she was the best of people before being forced to the shadow but a lot of what she's done my not have been things she would have done on her own had she not had the shadow heightening her desire to act on evil impulses that we all might occasionally have but never act on (smacking the guy on the bus who didn't wear deoderant, telling your boss to take a flying leap or better still hitting him with the stapler... etc.)

I think I'm officially a follower of the "Lanfear Conspiracy." ::nods::

 

[Jacqueline Casalain]

Meh. I still dislike Lanfear. I would much rather she gets sucked back in to the Bore to never return.

 

[Alkeis Cha'ane]

ha.. well i don't care i suppose in some ways... but to me its more about trying to rebuild.. and she could help a lot their... in a way sorta hoping agin gets freed again and escapes although that would cost another body so not so sure about that :/

.. anyways... if your gonna rebuild it helps to have a few wild cards running around etc keeps people on their toes with ideas etc..

 

[Lorianna Anayellen]

I am in support of Mieren having been turned forcibly rather than willingly. Robert Jordan spent an awful lot of time in the first few books describing that it could be done and making a point of it but then not really referrencing anyone that had gone through it before. He is not the kind of writer to waste words (despite the long books); he does not waste words. SOMEONE must have been turned, we know Verin wasnt forced in THAT way because she says so and no one else is really likely.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Week 12 Question: Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?

Robert Jordan Answers: Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

His last sentence seems to indicate that she went over the Shadow willingly. If she was "ripe for the Shadow's plucking", I don't see why the Shadow would go through the trouble of forcibly converting her. Much easier to just recruit her, isn't it?

 

[Lorianna Anayellen]

I disagree with that actually. She may have been exactly the type of person they would have wanted to recruit, but that doesnt necessarily mean that she would have been the type of person who would swear her soul away to the shadow. Think of it this way. She loved Lews Therin, even after he married Illiena. She didnt go after him, even as Rand. She would have been far more likely to go after Illiena as she did when she attacked Aviendha and Egwene. I think the fact that she loved him so much and held out hope that he would pick her again (if only she could rid him of the gold haired trollop that stole her man) she would have stayed on his side. Seems more likely that she would have fought with/for him in order to try to steal him back or do away with his wife.

For all of being crazy she was not stupid. How would going over to the dark side and pitting herself against him give her any hope of getting him back. She had to have seen that.

 

[Miya Kiyoshi]

For all of being crazy she was not stupid. How would going over to the dark side and pitting herself against him give her any hope of getting him back. She had to have seen that.

This. Again we're not arguing that she was a good person... she was deluded and quite possibly deranged so likely just perfect for going to the shadow - except she wouldn't.

Example of of what I mean: I'd argue that Eladia is a ripe for the picking as far as the shadow goes (power hungry, vengeful, not the best at seeing the bigger picture) yet she isn't likely to go to the Shadow willingly. I think that Mierin was the same way.

As for the quote, I'd say it speaks only to the fact that the shadow saw how she could be useful and that they scooped her up but note that it doesn't flat out confirm or deny that she willingly went to the shadow ... one has to question why, if she did, that it didn't just straight out tell us that as Jordan did with all the other forsaken.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I think she's just an extremely selfish person who doesn't really care about anyone but herself. I don't think she loves Lews Therin or ever did; I think it's precisely what LTT himself said: she only loved him for his power.

The difference with her and Elaida is, in my opinion, that Elaida was driven half mad by her fierce devotion to the Light. She would never turn to the Shadow, because everything she did everything she did because she thought it was necessary in order to defeat the Shadow. And then she just turned paranoid and crazy. But she wouldn't turn willingly, because aiding the Shadow would be the last thing she'd do. So Elaida isn't ripe for the plucking. You aren't ripe for the plucking if you have to be forcibly turned.

Just like being a viscious murderer doesn't make you ripe for the plucking. Jordan wrote somewhere in his questions and answers that there are killers who'd be horrified at the suggestion to become a darkfriend.

I don't think the fact that Jordan doesn't say outright "it was her choice" is particularly relevant. There are lots of things that he's seen as obvious that he never talked about plainly.

BWB says:

From various bits of evidence it seems that Mierin was not among the first to go over to the Shadow, but when she did pledge her soul to the Dark One, it was for the most basic of reasons: love and hate.

Of course, that's not proof, since the BWB doesn't have to have it right. But at least it indicates that it was her love/hate for LTT that drove her to the Shadow.

 

[Lorianna Anayellen]

He spends an awful lot of effort showing us that its possible to turn someone against their will. He brings it up often in the beginning then lets us sit on it. Do you think he just wasted the words (he hasnt really done that with much else and I have read and re-read the series a few times) or do you think that someone else important was turned in that manner? or will be?

 

[Tazren Talamar]

In my opinion, Mierin is the least likely candidate. I think people are being forced to turn at the Black Tower, though, and that's plenty enough.

I don't think any really important characters are going to be, or have been. Unless you count Tarna as an important character, for instance.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

I'd like to see one "live" by Moridin's hand. Is Taleen a major character? I'm majorly annoyed by her disappearance.

I don't think Mierin was one though. I don't think she turned for love/hate. LTT, her first love, was right. She was blind with ambition. I *hope* she sees how far that has gotten her; Rand called her Mierin, at least.