What if it's Mierin?

Miya Kiyoshi

Aes Sedai
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,753
Age
45
Location
Missouri USA
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Just a random question (maybe someone knows or can find evidence one way or another) because this was rattling in my head after reading some one else's theory on another thread...

Question: Did Mierin (AKA Lanfear) swear to the shadow before or after the creation of the Myrddraal? And, can you please provide a refrence to your reply.

Reason for the question: What if it was because of Mierin, that Jordan told us early on about how someone can be forced to the shadow?

Reasons for this idea:
a) Being powerhungry/deranged/misguided/foolish doesn't = evil. Case in point: Elaida. Nuff Said.

b) Despite being responsible (in part) for the bore, Mierin wasn't the first to join with the shadow. If she was so flat out stupidly power hungry and evil... why the wait? She more than anyone knew the power potential there.

c) The shadow had reason to believe that LTT would be moved by Mierin ... they were old flames and even if she was looney toons for him (power hungry or whatever) they had history. Her becoming shadowsworn might have been just another straw on the camel's back that the Dark One was trying to break.

d) Unlike the other forsakken who got their names from others, Lanfear picked her own. For someone who wasn't the first to go to the Shadow... she sure jumped in with both feet and embraced it, didn't she?

e) While peeved and nutty crazy about Rand sleeping with Avi when she showed up in Cairhien; she didn't decide to kill him (she didn't REALLY lose it) until he said that he couldn't love any woman sworn to the shadow. Why would this be a trigger any more than anything else... if it didn't hurt her deeply for some reason. I mean, really, she WAS in the middle of a great plot to convert Rand to the shadow, right? I mean she didn't think he was going to come willingly... sooooo why the shock that he hates it all the sudden? Could it be that hearing him say he could never love her, for something that was beyond her control, broke her withered blackened insane little heart?

f) At the end of book 13 when we see Mierin beg for Rand's help... it's Mierin he calls her and sees her as... not Lanfear. Could this be because of the LTT/Rand merge, or a writer's subtle way of indicating there is a difference between the two.

I know lanfear going good theories aren't really popular with a lot of folks :rolleyes buuut bear with me and look at the evidence and, consider that these books have often told little stories of people overcoming what was set against them and changing their ways when it seemed impossible they ever would. I think Mierin's story could be just another epic spoke in the wheel of time.

Now... the question is... does my theory hold water? Were the fades around at the time? COULD it have happened?
 
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
508
Location
Columbia, TN
A very interesting theory. I don't think think it's feasible. Because I think she swore before the Myrdraal came around. But I COULD be wrong. Interesting theory either way.
 

Deleios Cherchenuit

Necroposter
Aes Sedai
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
13,029
Age
41
Location
Near Paris, France
It's interesting. It would be nice to know when Aginor (or was it Balthamel?, I never remember which is which :p ) turned to the Shadow, since he helped creating the Myrdraals. I don't remember having a clue about that, though :/
 

Leo Kian

Aes Sedai
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
8,611
Age
34
Location
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Pronouns
  1. He - Him
It was Aginor who created the the Shadowspawn, don't know when but it must have been earlyish on during the Collapse because Trollocs appeared in huge numbers at the start of the War of Power. I could only find reference to Mierin turning to the Shadow 'sometime after' the Bore was drilled, so I suppose it is just about possible she was turned if Aginor created them early enough and Mierin turned late enough but I can only find vague references.
 

Miya Kiyoshi

Aes Sedai
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,753
Age
45
Location
Missouri USA
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
So... it's possible. Hmmm. Could be a good story if it's true!
 

Taika Vinh

Aes Sedai
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
6,045
Location
Helsinki, Finland
Miya Kiyoshi said:
I know lanfear going good theories aren't really popular with a lot of folks :rolleyes buuut bear with me and look at the evidence and, consider that these books have often told little stories of people overcoming what was set against them and changing their ways when it seemed impossible they ever would. I think Mierin's story could be just another epic spoke in the wheel of time.

I'm one of those folk that don't like Lanfear going good theories, but this would be totally different. All in the other theories (that I've seen at least) people theorize that she regrets her past idiocy, and turns back to Light, and I for one (and I guess many others think like that too) am so vengeful that I don't want to see that. :p Besides (again imo) she's totally unlikable character, so I wish her a sh*tty ending she (as far as we know) deserves.

But if your theory became true it'd be totally different, she'd be a victim of a great cruelty, and my sympathies would be hers. It certainly would be a big twist to the whole story!

I hope somebody has more accurate reference for your question! (I don't)
 

Morrighan Daghdera

CordaMorri
Gaidin
Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
8,102
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
*If* the BWB is to be believed, "Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow...about 50 years before the beginning of the War of the Shadow, Lews Therin married Ilyena...shortly after she embraced the Shadow"...Aginor "was one of the first to go over to the Shadow, probably some time in the first three decades of the Collapse...it is certain that the creation of Trollocs began well before the War of Power, because they appeared in large numbers in its very first days..."

Is the War of the Shadow the same as the War of Power? Is the BWB accurate on these points? Sorry, I don't think I helped very much.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
16
Miya Kiyoshi said:
f) At the end of book 13 when we see Mierin beg for Rand's help... it's Mierin he calls her and sees her as... not Lanfear. Could this be because of the LTT/Rand merge, or a writer's subtle way of indicating there is a difference between the two.

In the epilogue of ToM, we learn that Graendal's opportunity to hurt Rand has been given to another. This proves that this opportunity was given to Mierin.

P.S. Mierin herself was among the group who drilled the whole into the dark one's prison! (from TSR: Chapter 26)
 

Miya Kiyoshi

Aes Sedai
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,753
Age
45
Location
Missouri USA
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Murgabi said:
P.S. Mierin herself was among the group who drilled the whole into the dark one's prison! (from TSR: Chapter 26)

Yes, but from other sources we know she hadn't gone to the shadow at that point. In fact it wasn't until the war of the shadow that she went to the shadow so her involvement with drilling the bore was about power ... not about helping the shadow. This only proves she's power hungry... not shadow tainted at that point. I'm not arguing she was a nice person, per say, but saying she might have been forced to go to the shadow.

And, what better way to twist the knife in rand/LTT than to show him that this woman he's loved and hated... wasn't really sworn to the shadow by her choice and now would die despite or in spite of his best efforts. :evil
 
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
508
Location
Columbia, TN
I think the War of the Shadow and the War of Power are the same thing.

Unfortunately, Morrighans quote seems to discredit one of your points. It says LTT married Illyena shortly after she (which must mean Mierin) turned to the shadow. This would be a perfectly plausible reason as to why it bothered her so much when Rand said he couldn't love someone sworn to the shadow (or however he put it).

I pretty much agree with Taika Sedai, I'm no fan of the Lanfear regretting her past life mistakes and coming to the good (not because I'm vengeful, it just doesn't seem at all plausible to me), but this would be quite different. This would be plausible, and would be a good story to boot!

As for Myrdraal, the only definitive thing I can offer in help is to remember that they had to come after, possibly significantly after, the creation of a successful Trolloc. Because they were bred from Trollocs, a deformity if you will. And not a super common one I don't think. It would've taken time for them to show up. But, 20 years could be enough time. Possibly. I suppose that really depends on how fast Trollocs and Myrdraal mature.

Then, of course, you do have to consider that they very likely didn't know about the 13 + 13 trick until they'd experimented on the Myrdraal a good bit.

I want the theory to be true, but that doesn't make it true unfortunately. Still, I'm interested to see. We need someone super booksmart here to save the day *cough* Axis Gaidin *cough cough*. Sorry, cold snap and all that.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
16
Miya Kiyoshi said:
And, what better way to twist the knife in rand/LTT than to show him that this woman he's loved and hated... wasn't really sworn to the shadow by her choice and now would die despite or in spite of his best efforts. :evil

Even swearing to the shadow forcefully wouldn't change Lanfear's power hungriness. As she was saying to Rand that they may challenge the dark one himself with access keys. So it seems to me, a creature like Lanfear wouldn't have in her any bit of Goodness. :)
 

Morrighan Daghdera

CordaMorri
Gaidin
Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
8,102
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Kiante Draktis said:
I think the War of the Shadow and the War of Power are the same thing.

Unfortunately, Morrighans quote seems to discredit one of your points. It says LTT married Illyena shortly after she (which must mean Mierin) turned to the shadow.

Ah, pesky pronouns. The gist of the quote was that LT married Ilyena ~50 yrs before the War of the Shadow; "shortly" afterwards, Mierin turned to the Shadow. Trollocs were made "well before" the War of Power.

So...there's a time gap with the indefinite "shortly" & "well before". Is that clear as mud? For the Lanfear haters, let me just posit that the yin/yang symbol representing balance includes a bit of "bad" in the good & a bit of "good" in the bad. If anyone is in the position to judge Lanfear, it's Rand (with LTT's memories). He saw "something" (a bit of good perhaps) that caused him to recognize her as Mierin, not Lanfear. If ambition was evil in & of itself, then Egwene would not play for Team Light. :\
 

Taika Vinh

Aes Sedai
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
6,045
Location
Helsinki, Finland
I always thought Rand/LTT thought of her as Mierin instead of Lanfear in the dream because the body was different, and he recognized the soul. :cheeseeni: But it could be more meaningful, like you said.

I'm not a Lanfear hater even though I don't want her to turn back to Light (if it was voluntarily when she turned to Shadow). I somehow think it'd be lame, story-wise, even if she did some heroic stuff to balance her evil deeds in the past. Another Snape story. :p We had already Ingtar regretting and Verin as a double spy, and I don't believe RJ would repeat that (even if it's much larger scale).

But I'd be happy with a solution like Miya's theory :cheeseeni:
 

Morrighan Daghdera

CordaMorri
Gaidin
Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
8,102
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Lanfear gave him a teacher & sent Shadowspawn to Tear to help him. She drilled the bore & is the only 1 we know who might help Rand with fixing the mess she helped create. I'm unsure if RJ read Harry Potter but I don't see Snape storyline here. I see a foreshadowing pattern of her helping Rand. Ingtar's role was pivotal, yet almost forgettable. Verin never turned back to the Light. I like Miya's theory too...that is, if Axis Gaidin doesn't trout us on it. :p
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
16
Morrighan Daghdera said:
Lanfear gave him a teacher & sent Shadowspawn to Tear to help him.

It was Anath who sent shadow spawn to Tear to help Rand by the orders of Dark one not Lanfear.
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
2,417
Age
41
Location
Louisville, KY
Pronouns
  1. He - Him
Murgabi said:
In the epilogue of ToM, we learn that Graendal's opportunity to hurt Rand has been given to another. This proves that this opportunity was given to Mierin.

This doesn't prove it was given to Mierin. It's definitely a possibility, but there are others who could take on the task. Demandred is still out there and would love to hurt LTT/Rand, plus Moridin is hanging around with a mindtrap on Moghedien. Any of them could potentially take over Graendal's assignment. I think Demandred is a likely candidate, especially since Graendal may end up with the same fate as Cyndane and Moghedien for her failure. He's the only one who hasn't completely screwed up in one way or another.

I also have no idea how plausible the 13x13 on Mierin theory is, but I have to admit it's my favorite one about that scene in the epilogue so far.
 

Taika Vinh

Aes Sedai
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
6,045
Location
Helsinki, Finland
Morrighan Daghdera said:
Lanfear gave him a teacher & sent Shadowspawn to Tear to help him. She drilled the bore & is the only 1 we know who might help Rand with fixing the mess she helped create.

Both incidents were early in the series (and whether it was Lanfear or Semirhage or somebody else who sent the shadowspawn, I don't remember), and I haven't seen any helping from her later, only her willing to kill him even against Moridin's orders. I guess it's how each of us looks at it, but we'll find out soon enough :p

But what do you mean Verin didn't turn back to Light? She betrayed the Shadow big time anyway, I'd see that as turning back. Or do you mean that she was the Light's agent all the time?

I hope Axis says something about the theory since he seems to know all the details & facts :D
 

Morrighan Daghdera

CordaMorri
Gaidin
Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
8,102
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
My bad. Rand thought she sent the Shadowspawn, but she didn't. She did tell him to fetch Callandor before a male Forsaken could get it & well, he did. That worked out okay for him. Verin used a loophole in her oaths to the Dark One; that doesn't mean she turned back to the Light. Lanfear has been about as active as Moiraine & for pretty much the same reason. Aside from her appearance where Alivia whoops her during the cleansing, she's been a bit "tied up"...cour'souvra, yeah? Moghedien has been equally inactive except that she's never once been shown to be helpful to Rand. She did show that someone held by a cour'souvra can still act independently by balefiring Nynaeve's boat. So, there is the possibility that Lanfear could still act independently while held by the cour'souvra. Maybe there's a connection to this fact & her appearance in the epilogue?

As far as I can tell, Miya's theory is plausible.
 

Taika Vinh

Aes Sedai
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
6,045
Location
Helsinki, Finland
I think these both (about Mierin & Verin) depend on which angle we look at them. I based my opinions about how Mierin/Lanfear/Cyndane wants to kill Rand on her point of views in the chapter 35 in Winter's Heart (With the Choedan Kal)

Chapter summary here: http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Winter's_Heart:_Chapter_35

It says she want to see Rand (or LTT as she always calls him) die. If I remember correctly she was quite passionate about it too, so it doesn't much look like that she'd want to help him any more. My impression was that early in the series when she still had hopes for his love she helped him but not any more after her coming back from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn land (or actually after the scene where she discovered Rand's in love with Aviendha). But like you said we haven't seen her much because of the cour'souvra, so this is just my impression based on what little we've seen.
 

Morrighan Daghdera

CordaMorri
Gaidin
Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
8,102
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Oh, I see. You are basing your impression on the few paragraphs in the chapter where Alivia whoops her during the cleansing, which I referenced. I am basing my opinion on her entire story arc beginning with the Age of Legends & ending with the epilogue in ToM. I look forward to the resolution of her story arc & for others to quote references, as I did, in regards to the theory that Miya posted regarding the possibility of the 13X13 trick being used on her. I think the theory is plausible unless someone can cite more definitive references to the contrary.

Great work, Miya!
 
Top