December – Simply COEXIST

[Idine Espanyas]

I'll be honest: I say Happy Holidays where I live a lot just to be a troll

I support that energy.

I’m sorry, Nymala. I wish my fellow Christians would act more… idk… Christ-like and full of grace towards people believe differently than they do.

 

[Sela Narian]

Thank you for your perspective on "Happy Holidays" being said and how it comes off to you. I had never thought about it before beyond using it as a blanket term around this time since I don't know who does and doesn't celebrate Christmas. I'm grateful for this view because I would never want anyone to think I was trying to force them into the Christmas celebration by saying it and I had never considered it might come off that way before and now I can be more mindful of that

This was discussed a tiny bit in Brown Discord, so I'll tell you basically what I said there:

You don't have to tell everyone Happy Holidays. Or Merry Christmas. If you don't know they celebrate something, you don't have to say anything at all. There's zero obligation. Your wishing them a happy holiday or Merry Christmas is you putting a celebration on them. Maybe they appreciate it. I know I appreciate a good 'Shabbat Shalom' on a Friday or a 'Shavua Tov' (good week) every Saturday night and Sunday while out and about in town. But I only say it with people I know are Jewish, or who've already said it to me. If I don't know them and I don't know whether they're Jewish, I just don't even bring it up, and that doesn't hurt anyone. Not me, not them.

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

That's missing the point of my post. If you say "Merry Christmas" to me, I always say "and to you as well," rather than wishing my own holiday on you. The obverse is that when I have said "Happy Holidays" in the past, I can't tell you the number of people who have snarled back "It's MERRY CHRISTMAS!" Either way, anything other than Christmas is utterly ignored and dismissed.

Oh I would never correct somebody who had extended a greeting of kindness to me. I would normally just say Merry Christmas back or that I hope they have a good festive season or something. I would never ignore someone if they greeted me kindly, whether they said Happy Christmas or Happy Holidays or whatever it may be. That would just be really rude.

Likewise if someone of another faith wished me well during their own religious holidays I would respond in kind. I will always meet kindness with kindness because that's the decent thing to do.

 

[Sela Narian]

Oh I would never correct somebody who had extended a greeting of kindness to me. I would normally just say Merry Christmas back or that I hope they have a good festive season or something. I would never ignore someone if they greeted me kindly, whether they said Happy Christmas or Happy Holidays or whatever it may be. That would just be really rude.

Likewise if someone of another faith wished me well during their own religious holidays I would respond in kind. I will always meet kindness with kindness because that's the decent thing to do.

This is a really privileged perspective to have. It says 'my happiness of wishing you a happy whatever is more important than respecting the fact it may not be happy at all for you'.

And I heard it alllll the time growing up. Especially the part about being labeled rude for having zero interest in celebrating something it's literally blasphemous for some to celebrate, and serves to remind them a thousand times in a single month that their own beliefs are irrelevant. And if they disagree...they are the rude ones. Good story bro.

As said, it's one of the reasons I'm glad I no longer live in the United States.

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

This is a really privileged perspective to have. It says 'my happiness of wishing you a happy whatever is more important than respecting the fact it may not be happy at all for you'.

And I heard it alllll the time growing up. Especially the part about being labeled rude for having zero interest in celebrating something it's literally blasphemous for some to celebrate. And as said, it's one of the reasons I'm glad I no longer live in the United States.

I don't live in the United States - I live in England.

I think some people will find offence and see privilege wherever they look - even when someone is wishing them well, which seems odd to me. Intentions matter and I will generally judge people on their intent. If they wish me a happy holiday for something I dont partake in, I would just take it as a kindness.

 

[Sela Narian]

England and the USA are similar in this; I grew up in the States and I know many who grew up Jewish in England and experienced exactly what I did.

When I say that your statement is privileged it's a simple fact: you have a perspective based on your upbringing as one of the majority, rather than the minority, and therefore the assumptions you have about how things are and what people may appreciate as a kindness is narrowed in scope to your own experiences, which are like the experiences of many you meet on a daily basis. Therefore you haven't had to deal as often with the uncomfortable friction of constantly having different experiences where the things most people see as a kindness, with their narrowed scope of perspective, is not actually kind to you. Or respectful.

And even more, to point this out in any way often gives offense to the one with the majority view (after all, most whom one encounters see no problem with the same behavior) and the person with the minority perspective is deemed the unruly, rude one. You're just doing as you do and that almost everyone is fine with, and they're the problem. Simply for wanting to be seen and respected for themselves, and attempting to make this happen.

I don't have much hope that anything I say will make a difference in what you believe. But I'd be remiss if I didn't explain the situation anyway, with as much honesty as possible. Just because most with the same experiences and upbringing as you don't have a problem with it and see it as a kindness doesn't mean what you're doing is kind to everyone. Or respectful.

And this is the first step in how people with more social privilege often are able to steamroll over the perspectives, priorities, and sometimes even physical and mental safety of people in the minority. Easily. Without hardly anyone being bothered.

First step is "well they're being rude; I'm doing them a kindness and they've got a problem with that; they're obviously the one at fault". Next step, for some, is getting angry about how good they're being and how poorly it's received by this rude group of people. And then they start noticing other faults they've seen people within that minority do. And sometimes, it's taken to the next level and they start to lump those people and their actions together, and might start seeing how this group simply isn't as good or pleasant or properly patriotic. And one meets others with similar perspectives to one's own assumptions and biases and they are all validated. And I am sure I don't have to describe what comes next.

This is not a slippery slope argument. It is sociological history. It's been repeated countless times in countless territories over the last many thousands of years, applying to all manner of issues with minority groups of all types.

If we actually wish to coexist, we need to come in with the assumption that the way we were raised and what we value as good or sacred or kind or bad or incorrect or fun or blasphemous or rude is an always-changing thing from culture to culture and religion to religion.

And part of our personal responsibility in coexisting with others different from us is questioning how the things we were raised to value and believe lacked value could be understood differently from culture to culture. And if ours is the majority view in our society, it's especially important to understand that people with a minority voice may still believe and practice differently, with values and actions and social mores you may deem unacceptable or strange or incomprehensible. And that ascribing negative value to those things can be harmful in many ways to that minority group, if you have a majority voice (with the privilege, recognition, and comfort that comes with it).

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

I appreciate the time you have taken to share your perspective - even if I disagree with almost everything you have said. On a side note - you have a lovely way with words and a great ability to put down your thought into written form.

I guess from my point of view I try to navigate the world causing as much happiness as possible to those around me, but I wont let that change my core belief or the way I act, I do understand your rationale even if I disagree with almost all of what you are saying.

 

[Nymala Ingasy]

Oh I would never correct somebody who had extended a greeting of kindness to me. I would normally just say Merry Christmas back or that I hope they have a good festive season or something. I would never ignore someone if they greeted me kindly, whether they said Happy Christmas or Happy Holidays or whatever it may be. That would just be really rude.

Likewise if someone of another faith wished me well during their own religious holidays I would respond in kind. I will always meet kindness with kindness because that's the decent thing to do.

Again, you are totally and utterly missing the point on what Sela and I are trying to say. I get that you want to pay lip service to the idea of coexisting without actually DOING it, but when people on the other side are telling you how your benighted ignorance is affecting them, perhaps you should pay attention?

 

[Zashara Sho'am]

In fact, something Suz didn't write is that most Jewish kids didn't get gifts at Hannukah until they saw their gentile friends and neighbors getting them for Christmas.

Suz didn't say that because she totally didn't want to become the excuse some mean mama uses to not do Hanukkah gifts.

 

[Cahalan Sothron]

I guess from my point of view I try to navigate the world causing as much happiness as possible to those around me, but I wont let that change my core belief or the way I act

The two parts of your statement don't fit together. If you're trying to cause happiness but refuse to change how you act when people tell you how unhappy what you do makes them feel, you're failing yourself as well as everyone else.

 

[Nymala Ingasy]

The two parts of your statement don't fit together. If you're trying to cause happiness but refuse to change how you act when people tell you how unhappy what you do makes them feel, you're failing yourself as well as everyone else.

This. All of this.

 

[Nymala Ingasy]

Suz didn't say that because she totally didn't want to become the excuse some mean mama uses to not do Hanukkah gifts.

Oops? #sorrynotsorry

 

[Idine Espanyas]

The two parts of your statement don't fit together. If you're trying to cause happiness but refuse to change how you act when people tell you how unhappy what you do makes them feel, you're failing yourself as well as everyone else.

This. Sometimes it’s better to just listen and sit back and actually take in what people are telling you about your behavior.

 

[Sela Narian]

Suz didn't say that because she totally didn't want to become the excuse some mean mama uses to not do Hanukkah gifts.

Mama mean.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Tl;dr?

Islam
*crickets*

Quaker/peace
*more crickets *

Atheism
*crickets intensify *

Judaism
*omg! So much hate for literally everything you said in a thread about coexistence, but hey, points for being articulate while Jewish*

Spoiler: Go ahead

 

[Nymala Ingasy]

Nothin' to see here, folks.

 

[Raevyn Tsornin]

Nothin' to see here, folks.

I would be very interested to learn more

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Nothin' to see here, folks.

I will never “bless your heart”, sis. I know you know what I mean.

So frustrating to me as a gentile to see backlash against not just my bond mate, but specifically in regards to any person’s thoughts and experience as a Jew in a thread aimed at coexistence. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for y’all to live with such disrespect daily.

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

It must be so hard having people wish you a Merry Christmas in an effort to spread goodwill on their own religious festival. I can't imagine the trauma....

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

I guess from my point of view I try to navigate the world causing as much happiness as possible to those around me, but I wont let that change my core belief or the way I act, I do understand your rationale even if I disagree with almost all of what you are saying.

It must be so hard having people wish you a Merry Christmas in an effort to spread goodwill on their own religious festival. I can't imagine the trauma....

Hmmmm.

You’re being sarcastic, but it is a form of trauma to have your religion swept away by the tide of a dominant one. Lawmakers calling for laws to follow a holy book you don’t believe in. A dominant religion shoved down your throat for weeks at a time. Micro- and macroaggressions bombarding you. People wishing you a nonChristmas greeting — MANY times a day, for WEEKS — when they don’t acknowledge any of your Christian holidays. When you have to ask specially for your Christian holidays off work because to everyone else it’s just another day. You breath easier when you visit a country whose dominant religion is your own.

All these little bits build up and do in fact cause trauma. Minimizing that is cruel. When you strive for kindness and causing happiness in the world, to completely disregard the way people feel is the opposite of that.