Servant Of All System Beta Launch!!!

[Tree]

Rhed has the right of it. Churches do a lot of great work within the local communities as well as abroad. We are 100% not saying that acts of service preformed through a church that are based on giving to the community, such as donations, but also including providing meals and goods to local communities, don’t count. They do count! Absolutely! What we are saying is that activities like religious teaching or missionary work will not count. Activities that are solely for the promotion of a religion cannot be counted toward the Servant of All Program for Achievements. This is primarily because we do not want to, as a program or as TarValon.Net, be seen as promoting or endorsing one religion (or a few) over any others. We have such a diverse membership and as a community I think it is safe to say that we value inclusion.
I hope that this helps to clarify things for you Laraelle.

And thank you for the thanks Rhed, the team was amazing and really deserve a pat on the back.

 

[Laralelle Susandrea]

Ok. Can you edit the language then? It says these things may count. I just want to be sure that people's passions are equally represented, and that the religions aren't being discriminated against.

 

[Kelgan al'Moranwin]

I have two specific issues with the religion bit, but I'll e-mail them.

 

[Valadilene Aldieb]

Wow! This was a lot of work to get up and running! I'm really impressed with how well it's laid out in the Beta format! Nice work all!!! :joy

 

[Keisha al'Benn]

I recently donated several bags of clothing to our local thrift store. (YaY! for losing weight....Boo that it was in October! lol) Anyway, they always give a coupon towards the next purchase in their store and a paper we can use in filing a tax deduction. Is this considered a compensation? Would I be allowed to get points for it here? Is this making sense?

And YES! So much love and admiration for all who made this happen!! :joy

~sticks her tongue out at Pippers~

 

[Ibon Caseï]

I recently donated several bags of clothing to our local thrift store. (YaY! for losing weight....Boo that it was in October! lol) Anyway, they always give a coupon towards the next purchase in their store and a paper we can use in filing a tax deduction. Is this considered a compensation? Would I be allowed to get points for it here? Is this making sense?
And YES! So much love and admiration for all who made this happen!! :joy

~sticks her tongue out at Pippers~

Thank you.

Concerning you question:
"Points may be awarded in cases where one receives a small gift, stipend, or reimbursement for expenses."

My first instinct would be yes, you'd still get points. Tax dispensation is not a problem to get points.

I'm thinking it depends on how much that coupon is worth. If it "pays" you for the actual value of the clothing, so that you might as well have sold them yourself and gotten the same amount of money, then I would say no to points. But my guess is that the coupon only covers a minor part of the value of the clothing, it's more of a "thank you" than actual oayment. I would sugest that you write it down in the form when you submit for points, and include the approximate value of the coupon. That way, the SoA team can make the final evaluation.

"Points may be awarded in cases where one receives a small gift, stipend, or reimbursement for expenses."

 

[Lyara Tieran]

I'm majorly impressed with how well you have broken down the categories and I look forward to seeing how well this all goes down.

I, like Kit, am a registered organ donor and a blood donor. I donate clothing and food, and I buy gifts for the giving trees.....it'll be good to see how many of my TV.net family do the same actions, or have different ones that I can find out and maybe find a way to do as well.

Great work guys.

Pip, you so bad! *shakes head*

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

I'd like to post ooone more time to say that I am very impressed at how quickly and professionally feedback on the system is handled. I have every confidence in this team, and I'm excite to see how this moves forward. :grouphug

 

[Tree]

And today was my busy day! :P Okay, really this week is a busy one... but thanks Ninya!

 

[Kitan Tataru]

I'd like to also reiterate that I'm very impressed with how this system is set up

Hypothetical question:

Let's say I volunteer with the Brain Injury Association of America. They help people that have Traumatic Brain Injuries and Acquired Brain Injury, and the family members/caregivers of those people - and they don't help anyone else. Since the BIAA excludes people who don't have those conditions or are caring for people who do, would volunteering with them/donating to them not count for SOA?

 

[Ben al'Den]

I don't appreciate the implication that religion is hateful, discriminatory, or that it "[limits] a human being’s freedom and rights." This wording should be changed. Just as Tar Valon should not be seen favoring any religion, it should not be seen as being bigoted against religion either.

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

I think that portion of the rules has been misread repeatedly, Ben. Work for churches is not forbidden- only work that actively promotes religion. Volunteering for a food drive (that will be distributed without bias to anyone who needs it) through your church counts; volunteering to teach Sunday school does not.

Kitan, I'm not part of the team but my guess would be that you'd get points unless the program helped everyone with brain injuries EXCEPT a certain group whose views or lifestyle they disagree with. The way I'm reading it (and the way it makes logical sense) is that if a group offers a service to people with a certain need (food, housing, clothing, brain surgery), it has to be available to be an equal opportunity for EVERYONE with that need, instead of excluding people based on some feature of their life that is completely unrelated.


People who are freaking out about the antidiscriminatory statement...READ the universal human rights page that was linked. If your volunteer action violates someone's rights as listed on that page (whether through your direct action, or through the group's policies), then it doesn't count. If it doesn't violate anyone's rights (By your actions or by the group's policy), then it does count!

If after doing the research you determine that your action or your group's policies violate people's rights, and you still want it to count 'just because'....then maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities. This isn't about you, or me, or this site, it's about being a Servant of All and promoting the fact that this community helps and welcomes everyone and does not tolerate discrimination.

Simple.

 

[Ibon Caseï]

Let's say I volunteer with the Brain Injury Association of America. They help people that have Traumatic Brain Injuries and Acquired Brain Injury, and the family members/caregivers of those people - and they don't help anyone else. Since the BIAA excludes people who don't have those conditions or are caring for people who do, would volunteering with them/donating to them not count for SOA?

On the contrary. You WILL get points for that. However, if BIAA refuses black people with brain injuries, or explicitly refuses people from Poland, or encourages it's members to hate people in wheelchairs or refuses to help someone based on some other discriminatory reason... THEN you probably wouldn't get points.

So a limited operation serving a select group is fine, but not if it encourages hate and not if it discriminates within its chosen field.

Feel free to ask further if my explanation was unclear.

 

[Laralelle Susandrea]

I don't appreciate the implication that religion is hateful, discriminatory, or that it "[limits] a human being’s freedom and rights." This wording should be changed. Just as Tar Valon should not be seen favoring any religion, it should not be seen as being bigoted against religion either.

I feel similarly. I understand the intent behind it, I really really do, but I don't think that intent is coming across well.

Also thank you for handling this professionally and not turning it into personal attacks. I appreciate it.

 

[Jeffan Caliarthan]

I feel the need to voice my support for what the Outreach Staff is trying to do with that particular rule. Personally, I would be offended if someone got points for donating fiscally to the Salvation Army, because they are not a true charitable organization in the sense that they give their proceeds to charity. They take a bit of every donation and use it to further their political goals, which attempt to limit the rights of some human beings.

Now, if someone were to donate a few boxes of food to a drive run by the Salvation Army, I think that would be fine, because there's no question of where that food is going. The same thing can be said of any religious organization. If the donation is going to go to directly to helping any human being in need, regardless of the aforementioned definers, then it should qualify. However, if it's going to be used in any way that would limit or attempt to limit a human being's rights, then it should not count.

 

[Yelenia Hylraren]

So who decides? My concern, as written, is that it seems to be that you can't act/give according to your faith/beliefs because it doesn't jive with mine. I feel as Ben does - there's a flaw here. I totally get and support the intent - but I'm concerned at the limitations and the counter-discrimination? to those who do good works that are tied to (sharing) their faith. For some - everything they do is a reflection on their faith - it's how they share the Word/Glory/etc.


edit to add:
a box of food doesn't put gas in the food trucks that deliver food the Salvation Army gives at disaster sites. Monetary donations does.

How deeply will each group that is worked for/with be researched?

 

[Alaria Celentari]

I have another question...

My parents and I typically play a few benefit recitals each year, usually to benefit the music programs of small(er) churches in the New England area (things like pipe-organ restoration funds). These programs represent a significant time commitment in terms of preparation (think a minimum of 3-5 hours of practicing each week for the 2-3 months before the program) but the program itself usually 1.5-2 hours in length. The music we play is a mix of sacred and secular, heavily leaning towards the secular (when you perform organ works, the boundaries between sacred and secular are extremely blurry!) and regardless, we are playing it for its musical significance. These events are open to everyone in the community with the express intent of drawing in people who are not members of that church (otherwise, it wouldn't be much of a fund-raiser ) and they are educational, in that we seek to make a larger community aware of its own unique musical resources. We are often 'payed' by a meal, sometimes by contributions to travel expenses or by being hosted by a member of the church if the location requires it.
To give a specific example: this summer we performed a program at the community church in Cabot, VT - most of you, I'm sure, have eaten the cheese from their dairy co-op - which is (despite the factory) a very, very small town. They have a historic pipe-organ and no money to devote to its maintenance and restoration, so we offered to perform a benefit to support keeping this instrument in good shape. We were 'payed' with a potluck dinner before the concert and a place to sleep the night before. In terms of the magnitude of the commitment, I would estimate that I personally put at least 30 hours (realistically, it could have been more like 40-50 hours) into preparation (solo practicing, ensemble practice, rehearsals), not including travel time/expenses, for a 2 hour program. The content of the program ranged from extremely secular (think Aaron Copeland's Hoedown from Rodeo) to singing a hymn as part of one of my dad's original compositions - but in no-way was the event promoting religion in any respect. It was actually about presenting a range of uniquely American (almost uniquely New England composed) music as part of a larger community festival (their Olde Home Days - think community BBQ and yard sale).

So... here are my questions:
1) Does this count? (obviously, I think it should, but I'm concerned from what has been said above that it might not - one of the problems with supporting pipe-organs and their music is that it is next to impossible not to hold such events in churches)
2) What category would it fit in?
3) How would you evaluate the time commitment in terms of the point system presented above?

Sorry about the long post...

 

[Lilli O' Neeus]

I think the distinction would be best illustrated through the following examples:

1. Going door to door spreading the word of your God (which ever you choose to worship) is not an act of charity.

2. Going door to door to distribute food gathered by your church for members of its flock is considered an act of charity. Even if you also take the opportunity to speak with others that are not a member of the flock about the word of your God.

3. Said church refusing charity to members of its flock because of age, race, sexual orientation, etc., would disqualify the act of charity.

4. A church sets up a station in front of the building for feeding the homeless a nice beef stew one day whether the homeless person is gay, purple, or believes in the flying spaghetti monster makes no difference. They then refuse to serve a person who is known to have a home and food in their cupboards. The act still counts because they set out to specifically serve a group. That person with a home and food is not part of that group.

5. The Westboro Baptist Church (a group known to have well publicized prejudices and political agendas) does the same thing as the church in example #4. The act counts.

At least, this would be my understanding of the rules as the are currently written. Would I be correct?

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

I think honestly the defining question to ask is: Will my donation (be it time, money, items or body parts) be available to anyone who needs it with equal opportunity, or is it possible that (due to company/church/group policies) someone will be denied due to a personal factor (such as sexual orientation or race) that has nothing to do with their need for my gift?

If the answer to that question is "Yes, access is restricted based on factors that have nothing to do with need" then it doesn't count. If the answer is "No, there is no restriction on access based on such things" then it does count.



I absolutely do not consider attempts at converting people to a given religion to be worthy of Servant of All points under any circumstances. *shrug*

 

[Siusane al'Cuyler]

thanks everyone for reading through everything and asking questions! I have been reading all the questions as well. I do not have all the time available that I would like to have right now; so I'm going to spend my time putting thought into responding to the issues brought up about religion and related things (and will probably talk things over with the rest of the team as well.) that may take me a bit, but I wanted y'all to know I didn't just post and run...

I do want to say that this statement: "Points will not be awarded for work or organizations which attempt to limit a human being’s freedom and rights." is not directed at religious organizations and not intended to imply that religious organizations do such things. it is applicable to all organizations, be they religious, other charitable organization, community group, etc etc.

oh, I just saw Lilli's post come through. oh, and now Ninya's. did I mention I write slowly? at least when I am trying to think through things carefully. let me just try to make sure my brain is working before I say more.