Was Lan raped?

Maianel Istor

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In so many fantasy worlds rape is used as almost a casual plot device and almost always against women

Exhibit A: George R.R. Martin's books, which have a whole lotta sexual violence directed at women, but strangely the Night's Watch (which is exactly the kind of social milieu that tends to produce sexual violence between men) seems to be a rape-free zone . . .
 

Merena Orithana

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Hmmm...I wonder why....
:grumble

:desk
 
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I wonder how this would be written differently now than it was in the 90s. Do you all think it would be addressed more plainly that it is assault, do you think it would be left out all together, or do you think it would be much the same? I know what I thought when I first read it, but I also first read it at like 14 in the late 90s so what did I know at that point in my fairly sheltered upbringing?
 

Nadezhda al'Lanahrin

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I wonder how this would be written differently now than it was in the 90s. Do you all think it would be addressed more plainly that it is assault, do you think it would be left out all together, or do you think it would be much the same? I know what I thought when I first read it, but I also first read it at like 14 in the late 90s so what did I know at that point in my fairly sheltered upbringing?
I am not sure it should be written any differently. This is a fantasy world with different values and I think it was clever to flip the genders of what was happening to demonstrate a real world occurrence. Perhaps the only thing I would add/highlight is Mat's discomfort with the situation.
 

Jaryd Kosari

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I suspect it would be written the same, but the author commentary would be significantly different. :cheeseeni:
 
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If I were approaching the writing of Mat/Tylin today, whenever we're in Mat's POV I would remove any "comic undertones" from it, and bring to the forefront the feelings of powerlessness and humiliation. I would defintely keep it in the show, but just make it clear what's happening. Other characters can have the common reactions that show the myths society has about male victims, but juxtapose their reactions with Mat's feelings, and have at least one character be understanding and compassionate. Then end at the end of the episode put the phone number to the 1 in 6 Hotline.

The whole idea of a Malkieri carneira is ... ick. In a very small way I can appreciate what Jordan was trying to do, but Lan should have been older, and the continued power of the carneira should have been lessened or eliminated, as well as the initial "choosing" part of the ceremony be more balanced. I didn't get the sense that young Malkieri men could refuse once asked. :/
 

Jocasta Braithe

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If I were approaching the writing of Mat/Tylin today, whenever we're in Mat's POV I would remove any "comic undertones" from it, and bring to the forefront the feelings of powerlessness and humiliation. I would defintely keep it in the show, but just make it clear what's happening. Other characters can have the common reactions that show the myths society has about male victims, but juxtapose their reactions with Mat's feelings, and have at least one character be understanding and compassionate. Then end at the end of the episode put the phone number to the 1 in 6 Hotline.

The whole idea of a Malkieri carneira is ... ick. In a very small way I can appreciate what Jordan was trying to do, but Lan should have been older, and the continued power of the carneira should have been lessened or eliminated, as well as the initial "choosing" part of the ceremony be more balanced. I didn't get the sense that young Malkieri men could refuse once asked. :/

I also think that Mat's caring about Tylin's death and his feelings of responsibility are appropriate to keep in. It doesn't invalidate what happened to him for him to regret her death. Reactions to trauma can take odd forms.
 
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Agreed. Sexual assault and sexual violence almost always takes place inside of relationships of one form or another, which is one of the reasons why it's so hard to deal with. Having feelings of care for someone that is so willing to violate you, your body, your trust ... it's disorienting.

ETA: I just re-read Mat's description of Maiden's Kiss and ... y'all the number of times dubcon situations are in the books is making me hrrrmmm.
 
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Nadezhda al'Lanahrin

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I’m reading Winter’s Heart and this conversation came up in my head. This is about Mat’s and Tylin’s “relationship”.

Page 381:
“You don’t know our ways, that is the trouble,” she (Setalle Anan) said. “Pretties are an old and honored custom in Altara. Many a young man or woman has a final fling as a pretty, pampered and showered with presents, before settling down. But you see, a pretty leaves when she chooses. Tylin shouldn’t be treating you as I hear she is.

Emphasis is mine.
 

Azlan Marenellin

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While RJ and Harriet wrote the Tylin/Mat rape as "humorous", I don't believe it was intended to diminish the seriousness, but rather to ease into the conversation. In all cases, I believe that was the intent. Mat, Lan, Myrelle. The point was to generate discussion of SA/SH situations where the roles were reversed, and do it in such a way that the fragile nature of masculinity could accept, even if not always easily. Just my two bits anyway. Sorry to interject
 

Alyria Ess

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Rape in all cases is a darkness that literature wasn't known to shine a light on when this was written. With Mat, R.J. kind of, I don't know, peaked at it with a flashlight. Enough that we were all still safe. I appreciate the exposure, understand the handling in his fiction, and am glad that I belong to a group today willing to talk about it.
 
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