"To speak no word that is not true"

[Maianel Istor]

(Apologies if this isn't the right board for this question. It was the most suitable one I could find; I'm still at visitor status.)

The poetic wording of the first oath implies a rather obvious loophole, which is that it theoretically allows an Aes Sedai to write as many lies as she likes. Can anybody tell me whether this ever comes up in canon -- either with a (non-Black Ajah) sister lying in writing, or with explicit acknowledgement that actually, the wording of the oath also constrains what they put on the page? It's been long enough since I read the books that I can't recall.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

@Marie Brennan can you see this board?

 

[Maianel Istor]

@Nadezhda al'Lanahrin (ahhh, I've figured out how to invoke people!) -- yes, I can; I just thought that was more for people doing re-reads rather than general lore questions. Should I repost this over there?

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

@Nadezhda al'Lanahrin (ahhh, I've figured out how to invoke people!) -- yes, I can; I just thought that was more for people doing re-reads rather than general lore questions. Should I repost this over there?

I believe that an admin could just move this over there (@Alenya Al'Roran, @Deoan Kakarot, @Ilverin Matriam, @Mendo Cath, @Mieriana Souvra, @Serinia Edoras). When it comes to the two boards, the First Time Read is for those, of course, reading the series for the first time, so they can ask questions, post thoughts. etc. This is the same for the Re-read board as well, but for people who've read the series already. I suggest reading the pinned posts at the top of the boards! Some boards have rules that apply just to them.

 

[Arella Mathara]

@Nadezhda al'Lanahrin (ahhh, I've figured out how to invoke people!) -- yes, I can; I just thought that was more for people doing re-reads rather than general lore questions. Should I repost this over there?

This forum is for asking the Head Librarian (Director of Research and Records) questions or to discuss our Library (wiki).

The book forums are for discussing the books. The "First Time Reading" forum is spoiler free, the "Reread" one is for discussions with spoilers for the entire series.

And now Nadezha posted, lol, and yes, someone can probably move it for you

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

And now Nadezha posted, lol, and yes, someone can probably move it for you

Jinx! Lol

 

[Ilverin Matriam]

Thank you Arella and Nadezhda. Moved the thread to the WoT Spoilers forum.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

Thank you Arella and Nadezhda. Moved the thread to the WoT Spoilers forum.

Thank you, Ilverin Sedai!

 

[Merena Orithana]

Spoiler

To answer your question, I don't think so? I can't recall that ever happening. However, other than a few lists and a couple letters, RJ didn't really use the written word as a plot device. (as I recall, at least)

 

[Elania al'Manir]

I don't think it's ever explicitly mentioned.

However, from what we know of the Oaths, it might depend on the Sister's interpretation. If she believes it includes writing then it would. This is likely the default belief in the Tower. If she could somehow completely convince herself that it doesn't, I think she'd be able to get around the rule.

But the whole point of the Oath was to allow people to trust the Aes Sedai after the breaking, and if someone were to see a written lie from a Sister, it would damage that trust. So even if someone did somehow convince herself it was possible, I would guess it would be used very sparingly.

 

[Arinna Katal]

I agree with what Elania Sedai said and would also imagine that the Tower would work very hard to instill a belief that the First Oath applies to all communication into its initiates. The Oath is there to ensure that a sister's word is trusted, and it's already undermined enough by the Aes Sedai habit of being tricksy in speech*, so I imagine they would be very interested in keeping it as real of an oath as possible. I'm thinking here about Siuan's discussion with Egwene in which she passionately makes the case that the Aes Sedai are the Three Oaths--I definitely got the impression that the Oaths and the keeping thereof are kind of a big deal. I would also imagine that those Aes Sedai who are more likely to try to convince themselves that loopholes in the Oaths exist are the ones who are more likely to go to the Black Ajah anyway, which would solve that problem for them.

*While the Aes Sedai are famously manipulative, and we certainly see many instances of this in the books, I have to imagine that part of it is the need to remain calm, dignified, serene, and regal at all times while also knowing that, if you're about to say something untrue, the First Oath will clamp down and physically stop you from speaking! I'd probably stick to vague platitudes too instead of saying things plainly--seems easier that way, haha! I hadn't thought about any of this before, and it was very fun to think about, so thanks, everyone!

 

[Toral Delvar]

A lot of the oaths leave room for strange interpretations. For example, the oath to speak no word that is not true should prevent people from saying things that aren't true, but it doesn't - sarcasm and hyberbole are allowed (for example, we see Aes Sedai claim novices will want to run away and join the travelling people, which is obviously not a true statement). Robert Jordan said

The oath against lying does leave room for sarcasm. It is intent and result that matter. No sister can intentionally speak an untruth either with the intent of passing on false information or with the belief that false information might be passed on. Thus the careful slicing and dicing of words. But if someone were to hold up a piece of white cloth and ask whether it was black or white, someone who had sworn the Three Oaths would be capable of saying that it was black as a matter of sarcasm. But not if, for example, the person asking the question was blind and thus might well take the statement for truth rather than sarcasm

We also see where Egwene tries to scare the Whitecloaks at the beginning of the Dragon Reborn - Verin insists that what she did was forbidden by the three oaths, but she insists it wasn't really using the Power as weapon, and I'm with her on that. It's also suggested that Moiraine could tie someone up with the Power and have Lan slit their throat, which seems like using the Power as a weapon, but is thought to be a loophole
In the case of writing it might come down to intent - as RJ said, if the intent is to deceive. they might think it is forbidden, and so not be able to, but if they were writing fiction, or poetry for example, that might be ok

 

[Maianel Istor]

Thanks, all, and apologies for being slow to respond -- I need to train Google's spam filter not to catch notifications from this forum, apparently. And thanks to Ilverin Sedai for moving the thread.

This all makes sense, especially the reminder that intent factors significantly into the oaths' application -- a sister can readily say a thing that is untrue if she believes it's true (because man, it would change the world if their oath somehow measured objective reality instead of subjective understanding). Interesting that RJ made an explicit allowance for sarcasm, though. Anyway, I could see a woman with a real mentality of rules-lawyering being able to write a lie because the oath only talks about speaking instead of communicating, while another who cares more about the spirit of the thing than the wording not being able to do the same thing. (Which . . . leads to me wondering if the Aes Sedai most likely to write down lies would be Whites, heh.)

And agreed that even if a given sister is able to do this, she'd be very sparing about it, for the same reason that I imagine most Black Ajah sisters try to avoid outright lies when possible: if you commit outright falsehood, you're risking getting caught in it, which (for the Black Ajah) means risking people realizing you're not bound by the oaths, and (for the hypothetical lie-writing sister) means undermining what trust there is in Aes Sedai. Most of them would only do that when it's truly necessary, because of the risks.

 

[Elania al'Manir]

Now that you mention it, I would also guess that if the right Aes Sedai found out, the written non-Black liar would be sent to the Amyrlin for penance and made to understand the error of their ways.

 

[Toral Delvar]

For example, Elaida can say "Elayne, after month you will want to run away and join the Travelling people", but if Elayne had responded "Hmm, that seems unlikely, I think you are perhaps exaggerating", Elaida wouldn't be able to reply "No, after a month you will literally want to run away and join the Travelling People".

 

[Maianel Istor]

Now that you mention it, I would also guess that if the right Aes Sedai found out, the written non-Black liar would be sent to the Amyrlin for penance and made to understand the error of their ways.

Oh, no question. I asked because I'm thinking of running a Wheel of Time tabletop roleplaying game someday, and "can I lie in writing" is the kind of question my players will ask eventually. If they think their character could actually do it, then any subsequent consequences are on their head . . .

 

[Hal Bahalla]

Elayne had responded "Hmm, that seems unlikely, I think you are perhaps exaggerating"

Boy I wish Elayne had said that

 

[Laralelle Susandrea]

I don't know, I would argue the point that they can. Especially if they were litigious (if that's the word I'm looking for-not convinced that it is) and...honestly, I'm thinking of my 7 year old son- "You said I couldn't do x! I'm not, I'm doing (thing that is barely not x) instead!!" Or when my students do a very fast walk in the classroom because they know they're not supposed to run.

 

[Maianel Istor]

That's where I think the factor of intent mattering coming in. If you believe that the oath is meant to constrain your writing as well, and you know you're trying to weasel out of something that does apply, then you probably won't be able to do it (because you know you're really disobeying). But if you have the sort of mentality where you sincerely buy into the idea that if it doesn't say X, then you can do X.

 

[Alora Sionn]

If you look at the wording of this though any aes sedai can get around it, it says to speak no word that is not true. So literally you can't make up a fake word but you can say whatever you want because each individual word is true, it's the combination of different words that make something a lie lol