- Moderator
- #381
Ok, so I'm in no way wanting to be a part of this long and in depth debate, but it's late at night and I'm awake so I'll add my two cents
I find it interesting to draw analogies between this discussion and the Christian idea of Lucifer (a fictional example could potentially be Morgoth from the Silmarillion, who is a straight allegory for Satan). Much like the Creator, God, being omniscient, knew Lucifer would rebel against him before Lucifer existed. Yet he still made him. Why? Most Christians would argue that love that is chosen is sweeter than love that is forced. I.e., God wanted people to actively choose him over someone else. This is quite possibly the reason the Creator allowed the Dark One to exist in an imperfect prison, so that he could still touch the Pattern. I believe this is similar to arguments others have brought up, such as what is light without darkness?
However, the analogy is more subtle than that. Let us look at the story of the Garden of Eden and the Fall of Man. In the Garden, Adam and Eve chose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which... here's the kicker... was created by God. Yes, the devil "made them do it" (by that, I mean he encouraged them to), BUT he was not the source of the sin. Disobedience to God was. It's thought by some that the serpent in the Garden is a metaphor for humans' innate curiousity and not necessarily a manifestation of the devil. So the key point here is that, through this story, it would seem that in the Christian tradition Lucifer isn't actually the source of evil. He simply entices people to it. As such, Jesus becomes a sort of anti-Lucifer by providing people with another choice. However, it could be argued that neither Jesus nor Lucifer is the source of good or evil, God is the source of both (to the extent that one considers Jesus to be unique from God, which he both is and is not in traditional Christianity). After all, he is the creator of all things. This view is easily seen by viewing evil as the absence of good. If God created good, then he logically must have created its absence as well, and hence evil.
How does this connect to Wheel of Time? Obviously, the Creator is much less personal than the Christian God, more akin to the god of deism of the Enlightenment. He has more or less created a clockwork universe. However, it would seem that he allows the Dark One to touch the Pattern in order for people to prove, as it were, their devotion to the Light. But in doing so, he has also created the darkness. If the Dark One is analogous to Lucifer, then he is the tempter (a title given to Satan in the New Testament), NOT a source or a creator. In fact, it can be inferred from the Bible that Satan is a destroyer and as such is incapable of creating things. So, if we go by this comparison, the Dark One cannot create evil any more than he can create light. Therefore, he is the face of evil, but not the source of evil. A tempter, but not a creator.
Additionally, if we continue this analogy, Rand/the Dragon is obviously Jesus, who returns the choice of good to counter the Dark One's offered choice of evil.
I am not saying any of this is true. This is mere philosophical posturing on my part, and obviously there are many other religions that RJ used throughout his books, such as Taoism. However, I would like to ad that even in Taoism, darkness is not the same as evil; in fact, it's a necessary part of the world, which is also the case when using the Christian analogy for the reasons I explained above.
However, whether the Dark One is the source/manifestation of darkness or simply a being who entices people towards it, it's clear that he is actually necessary. Like I stated above, the fact that the Creator created him/it means that the Creator wanted for a choice to be possible. Otherwise, the Dark One would not exist. So from this analogy it would seem that the Creator is in fact the source of both Light and Dark, and has allowed for a manifestation of each (The Dark One and the Dragon) to battle during each turning of the Wheel, so that creation will always have a choice between the two.
Again, feel free to disagree with me, this is my logical conclusion after making the analogy with the Christian tradition. I am interested to know what others think of my logic.
Edit: Just thought of one more thing to add. To assume that, in Christianity, Satan is the source of evil puts him on the same footing as God, which obviously undermines God's power. Wouldn't saying that the Dark One is the source of evil be the same thing? Clearly he's not as powerful as the Creator, or he wouldn't be imprisoned. If the Dark One as a being is as powerful as the Creator as a being (they're on equal footing in a battle), then his imprisonment age after age after age would indicate light is inherently more powerful than dark, which destroys the theme of balance present throughout the books and something that, while altruistic and present in many stories, doesn't seem to mesh with this universe. More thoughts to think about.
I find it interesting to draw analogies between this discussion and the Christian idea of Lucifer (a fictional example could potentially be Morgoth from the Silmarillion, who is a straight allegory for Satan). Much like the Creator, God, being omniscient, knew Lucifer would rebel against him before Lucifer existed. Yet he still made him. Why? Most Christians would argue that love that is chosen is sweeter than love that is forced. I.e., God wanted people to actively choose him over someone else. This is quite possibly the reason the Creator allowed the Dark One to exist in an imperfect prison, so that he could still touch the Pattern. I believe this is similar to arguments others have brought up, such as what is light without darkness?
However, the analogy is more subtle than that. Let us look at the story of the Garden of Eden and the Fall of Man. In the Garden, Adam and Eve chose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which... here's the kicker... was created by God. Yes, the devil "made them do it" (by that, I mean he encouraged them to), BUT he was not the source of the sin. Disobedience to God was. It's thought by some that the serpent in the Garden is a metaphor for humans' innate curiousity and not necessarily a manifestation of the devil. So the key point here is that, through this story, it would seem that in the Christian tradition Lucifer isn't actually the source of evil. He simply entices people to it. As such, Jesus becomes a sort of anti-Lucifer by providing people with another choice. However, it could be argued that neither Jesus nor Lucifer is the source of good or evil, God is the source of both (to the extent that one considers Jesus to be unique from God, which he both is and is not in traditional Christianity). After all, he is the creator of all things. This view is easily seen by viewing evil as the absence of good. If God created good, then he logically must have created its absence as well, and hence evil.
How does this connect to Wheel of Time? Obviously, the Creator is much less personal than the Christian God, more akin to the god of deism of the Enlightenment. He has more or less created a clockwork universe. However, it would seem that he allows the Dark One to touch the Pattern in order for people to prove, as it were, their devotion to the Light. But in doing so, he has also created the darkness. If the Dark One is analogous to Lucifer, then he is the tempter (a title given to Satan in the New Testament), NOT a source or a creator. In fact, it can be inferred from the Bible that Satan is a destroyer and as such is incapable of creating things. So, if we go by this comparison, the Dark One cannot create evil any more than he can create light. Therefore, he is the face of evil, but not the source of evil. A tempter, but not a creator.
Additionally, if we continue this analogy, Rand/the Dragon is obviously Jesus, who returns the choice of good to counter the Dark One's offered choice of evil.
I am not saying any of this is true. This is mere philosophical posturing on my part, and obviously there are many other religions that RJ used throughout his books, such as Taoism. However, I would like to ad that even in Taoism, darkness is not the same as evil; in fact, it's a necessary part of the world, which is also the case when using the Christian analogy for the reasons I explained above.
However, whether the Dark One is the source/manifestation of darkness or simply a being who entices people towards it, it's clear that he is actually necessary. Like I stated above, the fact that the Creator created him/it means that the Creator wanted for a choice to be possible. Otherwise, the Dark One would not exist. So from this analogy it would seem that the Creator is in fact the source of both Light and Dark, and has allowed for a manifestation of each (The Dark One and the Dragon) to battle during each turning of the Wheel, so that creation will always have a choice between the two.
Again, feel free to disagree with me, this is my logical conclusion after making the analogy with the Christian tradition. I am interested to know what others think of my logic.
Edit: Just thought of one more thing to add. To assume that, in Christianity, Satan is the source of evil puts him on the same footing as God, which obviously undermines God's power. Wouldn't saying that the Dark One is the source of evil be the same thing? Clearly he's not as powerful as the Creator, or he wouldn't be imprisoned. If the Dark One as a being is as powerful as the Creator as a being (they're on equal footing in a battle), then his imprisonment age after age after age would indicate light is inherently more powerful than dark, which destroys the theme of balance present throughout the books and something that, while altruistic and present in many stories, doesn't seem to mesh with this universe. More thoughts to think about.
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