Shaidar Haran punishing Forsaken

Ibon Caseï

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I'm discovering things about the books that I used to be too naive to see. So now all of a sudden, I'm seeing sexual abuse everywhere. :eek

Did Shaidar Haran rape Moghedien and Mesaana, as punishment?

Apparently, RJ confirmed that Moghedien was raped by Shaidar Haran, after she got the mind trap and before she met Moridin. I don't know where/how that was confirmed, though, only word-of-mouth on the internet. Anyone know for sure?

There's also a passage where Mesaana is about to be punished and Shaidar Haran removes his armor... Why would he do that, if not to rape her?
 

Merena Orithana

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Yes- I'm seeing so much more violence during this re-read.
This video by Daniel Greene has a great summary:
 

Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

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@Merena Orithana that was a great video! I have definitely been one to say that the wheel of time series is not as dark as some others, but that is really because Robert Jordan doesn't spend a lot of time dwelling on the details. He just kind of glosses over things. But when you you dwell on some of the scenes in the books, especially some of the ones mentioned in the video, they really are truly terrifying. I've both read the books multiple times and listened to the audio version multiple times, and I cannot listen to the machin shin sections of the audio book at night. Not at all.

@Ebona din Casei I think you are right about the rape scenes, I don't remember them explicitly, and it's been quite a while since I've done a re read, but I do think think that shadar haran was given permission to do whatever he wanted with the women and that included rape.
 

Ilverin Matriam

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I remember thinking this last time i did a re-read, I was wondering if they were talking about rape, yes. Myrdraal are shown to be very sadistic and they like to... "play" with their victims if I remember correctly.
However, I do not know why, but I feel like it's not a sexual play that they are after. More like... well torture play, like pulling nails or teeth out or I don't know, cutting parts? My imagination is very limited in this regard as you can tell. It's just... Myrdraal are not men and I cannot associate the human needs and asserting dominance or punishment by sexual acts with them.
It would be very humiliating for the Forsaken if that's the case though, so obviously it could be the case, but RJ just didn't want to say it. It's like in that chapter where Juilin wanted figs and mice to torture someone? You might not know what you could do with that, but the person would imagine something horrible happening to them. So RJ left it unsaid so that we could imagine the worst happening? :P
 

Elania al'Manir

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However, I do not know why, but I feel like it's not a sexual play that they are after. More like... well torture play, like pulling nails or teeth out or I don't know, cutting parts? My imagination is very limited in this regard as you can tell. It's just... Myrdraal are not men and I cannot associate the human needs and asserting dominance or punishment by sexual acts with them.
This is a good point, I do think it's entirely possible that it's more about dominance and punishment than sexual gratification.
 
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I agree with Ilverin Sedai on this. I didn't think Myrddraal would have those desires, or even if they physically can :look:.
 

Arella Mathara

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I'm sure it's explicitly stated somewhere in the books that they do rape and that it's extremely horrible to experience. I think it might be one of the Forsaken either saying or thinking it. Desire rarely have anything to do with rape
 
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They probably did because they knew what it would do to the victim. Desire be damned, it was about inflicting the most harm with the least amount of energy-this would do the trick in that instance.
 

Jocasta Braithe

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Shaidar Haran wasn't a regular Myrdraal either, I'm not sure I ever got a clear understanding of what exactly he was, but he wasn't a run of the mill example of what Myrdraal are like by any stretch. I think what applies to him might not necessarily apply to them generally.
 

Alora Sionn

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I always saw Shadar Haran as all the qualities of the Dark One, hatred, sadism, power hungry etc, pretty much the essence of the Dark One, poured into a physical form, in this case a Fade. I think he 100% was going to rape her and it was because he'd get off on causing trauma and being in control, and feeding off the fear and anguish. Rape isn't about sexual desire most of the time, it's about power and control, and for this thing which thrives on pain, fear, chaos etc, that's all the reason he needs.

I remember when I first read it I was like omg because I got that vibe from him right away and to me that was way scarier than any normal Fade or Trolloc.
 

Jaryd Kosari

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For the record, I just discovered that the Companion confirms the sexual nature of Shaidar Haran's "punishment."
 

Jocasta Braithe

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Yuck. Of course, I never accused Shaidar Haran of being on the light side.
 
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I've read that Shaidar Haran was just an avatar of the Dark One.
 

Jaryd Kosari

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Shaidar Haran was its own separate entity, capable of thought and action on its own, but the Dark One could project itself into Shaidar Haran if it chose. So...sort of?
 

Ibon Caseï

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Shaidar Haran was its own separate entity, capable of thought and action on its own, but the Dark One could project itself into Shaidar Haran if it chose. So...sort of?
So a God/Jesus kind of thing? (just evil, obviously)
 

Keisha al'Benn

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I remember several mentions of women having a worse time at the hands of the myrdraal....and that's before any mention of Shaidar Haran....I always assumed that's what it meant.
 
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