Seanchans are scums!

Ilverin Matriam

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I'm pretty sure Luthair got that from his dad, versus anything he experienced in Seanchan.

It is possible that it's a combination of both. But really , having that background information about the Aes Sedai in Seanchan fighting for more power does change a lot in my opinion. You see why they might have thought that channelers are dangerous and untrustworthy... because they actually were.

It is good to know where the Aes Sedai came from that was with Luthair - I guess they could have also traveled across the ocean to him to offer the new ter'angreal??

I mean, I thought so too, but like I posted earlier, why tf would a Westland Aes Sedai want to do that? If Luthair hated Aes Sedai like Arthur, then it doesn't make sense. But having a Seanchan Aes Sedai getting on his good side, makes more sense, since she would get more power after he wins (which she thought is going to happen and it happened)

What I am curious about now is how much of the knowledge of those Aes Sedai was left after the leashing and who was it transfered to? The sul'dam? What would sul'dam know about chanelling if they don't channel themselves? Someone needed to teach those first sul'dam in the first place. Or the first sul'dam were Aes Sedai too? But then they needed to be leashed too... argh I don't know,...
Also how was the Power kept being passed down through the generations? They couldn't have let the damane procreate could they? Were the sul'dam the ones who procreated and passed the talent of channeling on? Men were executed if found to be able to channel... so it only leaves the sul'dam I guess.
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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It is possible that it's a combination of both. But really , having that background information about the Aes Sedai in Seanchan fighting for more power does change a lot in my opinion. You see why they might have thought that channelers are dangerous and untrustworthy... because they actually were.



I mean, I thought so too, but like I posted earlier, why tf would a Westland Aes Sedai want to do that? If Luthair hated Aes Sedai like Arthur, then it doesn't make sense. But having a Seanchan Aes Sedai getting on his good side, makes more sense, since she would get more power after he wins (which she thought is going to happen and it happened)

What I am curious about now is how much of the knowledge of those Aes Sedai was left after the leashing and who was it transfered to? The sul'dam? What would sul'dam know about chanelling if they don't channel themselves? Someone needed to teach those first sul'dam in the first place. Or the first sul'dam were Aes Sedai too? But then they needed to be leashed too... argh I don't know,...
Also how was the Power kept being passed down through the generations? They couldn't have let the damane procreate could they? Were the sul'dam the ones who procreated and passed the talent of channeling on? Men were executed if found to be able to channel... so it only leaves the sul'dam I guess.


I LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE WAIT WAIT WAIT

what book of the re-read are you on book 2? i can totally catch up with you, we can be signature buddies... I am guessing you highlight the next book and update the sig... I LOVE THAT SO MUCH, i want a bigger version of it for my desktop background on win 10... please... be my friend... how can we make this happen?

:ha:yay:wave:love:want:want:want:want:want
 

Lyndo Shiranui

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But having a Seanchan Aes Sedai getting on his good side, makes more sense, since she would get more power after he wins

Yeap, this is the most logical explanation. So, I think we can say that Deain was indeed a Seanchan Aes Sedai.

Were the sul'dam the ones who procreated and passed the talent of channeling on?

I guess so. Without knowing it, they were the only reason that marath'damanes was kept born in their lands.
 

Keisha al'Benn

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Egeanin is the only Seanchan I like....she was terrified, but open minded enough to be willing to learn and change her attitude towards channelers.
 

Toral Delvar

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Also how was the Power kept being passed down through the generations? They couldn't have let the damane procreate could they? Were the sul'dam the ones who procreated and passed the talent of channeling on? Men were executed if found to be able to channel... so it only leaves the sul'dam I guess.
If it was a single gene, and having two copies meant that a person had the spark, and one copy meant they could learn, then as the Seanchan identify all possible sul'dam, every damane would have to have a sul'dam for a parent, and at least half the children of sul'dam would also be sul'dam or damane (depending on how common the gene was)
If they were to separate genes, both recessive, say DD and SS, it might work, "D" could remain present in the population at a low level - it would decrease, as every generation and DD would be removed .
 

Juliya Karisu

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Great discussion on the Seanchan - lots of this stuff I didn't know or didn't think about.

I don't like the Seanchan and I dislike Tuon immensely. I don't feel she changes at all by the end of the series.

My husband's rereading and we were discussing when Egwene is collared and wow do I dislike that part. Not looking forward to seeing it in the TV show.
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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Great discussion on the Seanchan - lots of this stuff I didn't know or didn't think about.

I don't like the Seanchan and I dislike Tuon immensely. I don't feel she changes at all by the end of the series.

My husband's rereading and we were discussing when Egwene is collared and wow do I dislike that part. Not looking forward to seeing it in the TV show.

I have to admit, if I were to pick a least favorite aspect of Wheel of Time, it is also the Seanchan for me. Even during my first read of the series, I remember being intrigued by them, but over time it just felt like it was "forced" into the story a little too much to give the world more depth.

It's all good though. I'm considering writing some fan fiction and not sharing it with anyone else, just for my own enjoyment. I really want to explore Padan Fain at the end more, and I want to explore Rand's schools/academies more. I think all of us have certain parts of wheel of time we love and don't love, so yeah... should be fun nostalgia/experimentation during my re-read :)
 
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I wrote a short essay on my complicated love/hate relationship with Tuon as a reader, because of course I did.

Why have I always liked her so much even though she is, well, ah "nuanced" and "complicated"? Why am I willing to forgive her so much, and be so patient?

In my mulling, I realized it's because I'm a bisexual woman who grew up in US Southern Christian fundamentalism, specifically Independent Fundamental Baptist. I knew-forgot-remembered-denied my queerness from the age of seven until I finally came out publicly to everyone when I was twenty-five because I had been taught my entire childhood and adolescence to despise queer people. It was absolutely hatred, but it was also just the conviction that queer people were less than. There was no room even for "love the sinner, hate the sin" in my religion. Anyone who was LGBT+ was not even really a person.

I'm seven, and slowly coming to the realization that, for most of my peers, "crushes" and childish romances happen heteronormatively. The fact that I think anyone is an option as a "crush" makes me different.

At 10, I realize that difference is bad, so I immediately disavow it. As I go through puberty and watch my friends talk about boys and crushes, I realize that I find every single boy I've encountered in our circles absolutely repulsive and I get scared. The idea I could be a "perverted homosexual" fills me with so much self-loathing I don't know what to do with it.

Mentally and emotionally, I escape into purity culture. The fact that I'm not tempted to lust after boys, find them attractive, or have crushes on them just means I'm a perfect little Christian girl. I am pure. I get all the gold stars for my purity. I am the bestest at Christian-ing. A der'sul'purity, if you will.

Enter Tuon, a sul'dam who finds out the only difference between marath'damane and sul'dam is that marath'damane have "the spark" and sul'dam can learn to channel.

And thus begins the cycle of knowing-forgetting-remembering-denying-justifying. She's not like one of those (coughperverted homosexualscough) marath'damane; unlike them, she has a choice, and she will choose not to channel ... much like how a lot of self-loathing queerphobic bisexual people "choose to be straight." They could learn to channel, but they won't, and that makes them better than (coughlesbians) marath'damane. Her entire world doesn't have to come crashing down around her ears, she doesn't have to examine the truths she's been taught since the cradle, she doesn't have to come to terms with how the power of her position is based on a lie.

Queerness is about difference; it's about the non-normative, the expansive, the encompassing, the strange, the profound, the both-and. It is liberating, but when you've been taught your entire life to hate it, and to see being it as stripping you of your very personhood, your right to humane, respectful treatment ... the urge to deny it as a part of you can be very strong. Instead, Tuon retreats into the power structure of her society: she's not just a sul'dam, she is incredibly good at being a sul'dam. That's the truth she clings to as her homeland crumbles and the world ends.
 
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Ephrem Elpidius

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I wrote a short essay on my complicated love/hate relationship with Tuon as a reader, because of course I did.

Why have I always liked her so much even though she is, well, ah "nuanced" and "complicated"? Why am I willing to forgive her so much, and be so patient?

In my mulling, I realized it's because I'm a bisexual woman who grew up in US Southern Christian fundamentalism, specifically Independent Fundamental Baptist. I knew-forgot-remembered-denied my queerness from the age of seven until I finally came out publicly to everyone when I was twenty-five because I had been taught my entire childhood and adolescence to despise queer people. It was absolutely hatred, but it was also just the conviction that queer people were less than. There was no room even for "love the sinner, hate the sin" in my religion. Anyone who was LGBT+ was not even really a person.

I'm seven, and slowly coming to the realization that, for most of my peers, "crushes" and childish romances happen heteronormatively. The fact that I think anyone is an option as a "crush" makes me different.

At 10, I realize that difference is bad, so I immediately disavow it. As I go through puberty and watch my friends talk about boys and crushes, I realize that I find every single boy I've encountered in our circles absolutely repulsive and I get scared. The idea I could be a "perverted homosexual" fills me with so much self-loathing I don't know what to do with it.

Mentally and emotionally, I escape into purity culture. The fact that I'm not tempted to lust after boys, find them attractive, or have crushes on them just means I'm a perfect little Christian girl. I am pure. I get all the gold stars for my purity. I am the bestest at Christian-ing. A der'sul'purity, if you will.

Enter Tuon, a sul'dam who finds out the only difference between marath'damane and sul'dam is that marath'damane have "the spark" and sul'dam can learn to channel.

And thus begins the cycle of knowing-forgetting-remembering-denying-justifying. She's not like one of those (coughperverted homosexualscough) marath'damane; unlike them, she has a choice, and she will choose not to channel ... much like how a lot of self-loathing queerphobic bisexual people "choose to be straight." They could learn to channel, but they won't, and that makes them better than (coughlesbians) marath'damane. Her entire world doesn't have to come crashing down around her ears, she doesn't have to examine the truths she's been taught since the cradle, she doesn't have to come to terms with how the power of her position is based on a lie.

Queerness is about difference; it's about the non-normative, the expansive, the encompassing, the strange, the profound, the both-and. It is liberating, but when you've been taught your entire life to hate it, and to see being it as stripping you of your very personhood, your right to humane, respectful treatment ... the urge to deny it as a part of you can be very strong. Instead, Tuon retreats into the power structure of her society: she's not just a sul'dam, she is incredibly good at being a sul'dam. That's the truth she clings to as her homeland crumbles and the world ends.

this was a wonderful read. thank you for sharing. I honestly never read Tuon or the Seanchan in this way. I'm sorry you had that experience btw, growing up I mean. my dislike for the Seanchan and Tuon are just they feel out of place in the story sometimes. like it's almost forced? I don't know, I am weird lol
 

Alexr al'Petros

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I agree with Ephrem...that was a wonderful read @Aratouial Delafeld ..thank you for sharing that. Brilliant essay (although, I'm sorry about your suffering). I am / was very intrigued by the Tuon story arc and was always disoriented as to how it might end or continue; you've really provided a wonderful arc to consider. Within the books, I appreciated her character because in many ways she seemed another manifestation of the "duty is all!" paradigm that was first introduced by Lan. I enjoyed how RJ explored single-minded idealism and how it can become corrupted. It was a nice contrast to the nuanced and conflicted principal characters (Nynaeve, Egwene, Rand, etc.).
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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I agree with Ephrem...that was a wonderful read @Aratouial Delafeld ..thank you for sharing that. Brilliant essay (although, I'm sorry about your suffering). I am / was very intrigued by the Tuon story arc and was always disoriented as to how it might end or continue; you've really provided a wonderful arc to consider. Within the books, I appreciated her character because in many ways she seemed another manifestation of the "duty is all!" paradigm that was first introduced by Lan. I enjoyed how RJ explored single-minded idealism and how it can become corrupted. It was a nice contrast to the nuanced and conflicted principal characters (Nynaeve, Egwene, Rand, etc.).

The only thing I wish RJ had done differently is maybe bring in someone on the autism spectrum for one of the characters. I never felt anyone in the story represented someone on the spectrum like myself. I think during RJ's time though, the spectrum stuff was all still relatively new. So fair enough I guess.
 
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Thank you, both of you. ^_^

I always feel sympathetic tugs for people who are buried and suffocating under authoritarian ideology. It's complicated because just because it's really difficult to escape doesn't make it impossible. People have agency, they have the freedom to question their teachings and circumstances if they want to. Tuon could make different choices. I get why she doesn't, but she could. I did, eventually.

I read someone recently that found a lot of ADHD signs in Mat's character, which I thought was really cool. But I also can't think of anyone I related to that way in the books (I'm on the spectrum, too). At least not a main character. I guess there's the White Ajah and I'd bet they'd have a lot of spectrum people in there :)
 

Ibon Caseï

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The only thing I wish RJ had done differently is maybe bring in someone on the autism spectrum for one of the characters. I never felt anyone in the story represented someone on the spectrum like myself. I think during RJ's time though, the spectrum stuff was all still relatively new. So fair enough I guess.
Galad and Perrin, in my opinion, are both on the spectrum. See my thread on that. :)

I'm re-reading A Memory of Light, and I'm actually growing more and more fond of Tuon.

I hadn't considered whether that's because I've also very recently admitted to myself that I'm queer (and nonbinary).. But that's worth pondering. Thank you for the insight, @Aratouial Delafelt
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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Galad and Perrin, in my opinion, are both on the spectrum. See my thread on that. :)

I'm re-reading A Memory of Light, and I'm actually growing more and more fond of Tuon.

I hadn't considered whether that's because I've also very recently admitted to myself that I'm queer (and nonbinary).. But that's worth pondering. Thank you for the insight, @Aratouial Delafelt

Looking up the thread now!!! This is going to be awesome read thank you for letting me know... I have always identified with Perrin, even as far back as my high school days playing Final Fantasy XI mmorpg, my name was Perrinx on those servers... maybe subconsciously there is more to it than I realize!
 
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