My problem with TV Show Ishamael (book spoilers)

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Hello fellow WoT lovers,

I was thinking about this last night - I have a real problem with TV Ishamael. My problem is that they haven't given us Ishamael, they have given us Moridin. Ishamael is particularly unhinged - part of which could be relativistic time effects around the bore meaning Ishamael kept being spun back into the Pattern coupled with his nihilistic world view that eventually the dark One would win (Ishamael is actually the only one who surmises what the world would look like if the Dark One won - as opposed to the other Forsaken (excepting Lanfear) who seem to think they will rule over some sort of paradise).

So we get very little of Ishamael as Ba'alzamon, seeing him taunt and torture the boys. Instead we get Ishamael as his post-resurrection persona of Moridin, talking philosophy and engaging in discussion.

I feel it may have cheapened his arc and on his ressurection we get little change - as opposed to the books which saw a massive change in his character (which I think might be due to the madness of the taint being lifted by the DO.
I always saw Ishamael as the mad version of Moridin, with hundreds of years of tainted Saidin seeping his bones - after all we know the DO even liked to punish the faithful, which is one of the reasons Ishamael was immediately spun back into the Pattern - because his entire existence was aimed at ensuring oblivion, rather than eternal damnation (as he saw it).

Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?
 

Elania al'Manir

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My guess is that we're not getting a death and resurrection. They're probably merging Ishamael and Moridin, which means we're getting more of a Moridin personality from the get-go. It makes sense to not have to re-cast the actor. Other people have also speculated that they're cutting out more Forsaken, too. We start with 13 and then... what, four of them get resurrected as different people? That's a lot. (To be clear, I didn't actually take the time to count, that's my best guess on the number of resurrections.)

So I do see what you're saying about how this Ishamael is pretty calculated and sane. But I think that was an intentional choice on the part of the showrunners because that's how he's going to stay for the entire series.
 
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My guess is that we're not getting a death and resurrection. They're probably merging Ishamael and Moridin, which means we're getting more of a Moridin personality from the get-go. It makes sense to not have to re-cast the actor. Other people have also speculated that they're cutting out more Forsaken, too. We start with 13 and then... what, four of them get resurrected as different people? That's a lot. (To be clear, I didn't actually take the time to count, that's my best guess on the number of resurrections.)

So I do see what you're saying about how this Ishamael is pretty calculated and sane. But I think that was an intentional choice on the part of the showrunners because that's how he's going to stay for the entire series.

I think you are right - they will reduce the number of Forsaken (I think we have seen the Darkfriend meetup in Season 2 on the trailer and someone on YT worked out how many Forsaken are likely to be in that meetup. I do think this is a shame and they must show at least one Resurrection imo - it is important to the plot and specifically the Dark Ones ability as Lord of the Grave and how the Dark One is bound to a single moment in time.

Ishamael > Moridin
Graendal > Hessalam
Also Or'angar and Aran'gar who I think are Aginor and Balthamel although I cant remember which one is which.
Also Lanfear as Cyldane

I think that's all of them.

I think it's a mistake on their part - I mean part of the reason that the boys are not dead is because Ishamael is crazy as hell and probably half believes he is Ba'alzamon. We need more Ishamael - it makes Moridin that much more intimidating in my opinion. Also having them recast actors as they are ressurrected into different bodies is pretty cool. "She's channelling Saidin!" has to be one of my favourite moments.
 

Dianna Melear

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I agree that they're likely not going to do many, if any, Forsaken death and resurrections in the show. Cutting those out is a tidy way of cutting down the sheer amount of plot that they have to handle in only (Amazon willing) 8 seasons.

Also, while I love the "she can channel Saidin!" reveal, it's not great that we book readers can't even tell which OG Foresaken Or'angar and Aran'gar are. Plus I must admit that I had completely forgotten that Graendal was ever revived. How much more confusing will it be for show-only fans?

The show has done a good job of giving the villains weight and made them more scary than any of the villains are in the books. (I'm thinking the Whitecloaks in particular here.) I actually think killing off and reviving a bunch of Forsaken gives them less weight overall. Rather than it being a Big Deal when one of our heroes defeats a Forsaken, it ends up feeling like they're playing wack-a-mole.

What I would like the show to do is show us more of the relationship between Lews Therin and Ishamael from the Age of Legends. (Although if Ishamael ever just calls him "Lews" again I will lose my mind.) There's a lot implied in Ishamael's conversation with Rand from ep. 8, but I would like to see more. They probably won't do the book 1 prologue -- and they shouldn't, because of Winter Dragon, imho -- but I would love to see how close Ishamael and Lews Therin used to be.
 
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I agree that they're likely not going to do many, if any, Forsaken death and resurrections in the show. Cutting those out is a tidy way of cutting down the sheer amount of plot that they have to handle in only (Amazon willing) 8 seasons.

Also, while I love the "she can channel Saidin!" reveal, it's not great that we book readers can't even tell which OG Foresaken Or'angar and Aran'gar are. Plus I must admit that I had completely forgotten that Graendal was ever revived. How much more confusing will it be for show-only fans?

I think they might need to show at least one resurrection. If they don't then it will really cause a problem at the aMoL ending imo - it will feel a bit like a deus ex machine if they don't lay the groundwork properly.
The show has done a good job of giving the villains weight and made them more scary than any of the villains are in the books. (I'm thinking the Whitecloaks in particular here.) I actually think killing off and reviving a bunch of Forsaken gives them less weight overall. Rather than it being a Big Deal when one of our heroes defeats a Forsaken, it ends up feeling like they're playing wack-a-mole.

Honestly I really disliked the shows portrayal of the Whitecloaks, they seem to be like 2d pantomime villains, the only thing they didn't do was twirl a moustache. I much prefer the book version of hardened men doing a grim task because it needed to be done (from their point of view). I did like the guy who plays Padan Fain though - I think he can really do something with that character and for me played it really well.

What I would like the show to do is show us more of the relationship between Lews Therin and Ishamael from the Age of Legends. (Although if Ishamael ever just calls him "Lews" again I will lose my mind.) There's a lot implied in Ishamael's conversation with Rand from ep. 8, but I would like to see more. They probably won't do the book 1 prologue -- and they shouldn't, because of Winter Dragon, imho -- but I would love to see how close Ishamael and Lews Therin used to be.

I would also like to see more of that, it would be interesting to see their relationship build and then see the moment when Lews Therin humbled Ishamael in the Hall of Servants. I also second your distaste at him being called Lews, I don't know why it bothered me, it just did!
 

Elanda Tonil

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Honestly I really disliked the shows portrayal of the Whitecloaks, they seem to be like 2d pantomime villains, the only thing they didn't do was twirl a moustache. I much prefer the book version of hardened men doing a grim task because it needed to be done (from their point of view). I did like the guy who plays Padan Fain though - I think he can really do something with that character and for me played it really well.
I'm hoping Galad's arc, if Galad exists in the show..., will help add depth to the show Whitecloaks. Seeing someone we generally see as a Good Guy join them, and seeing his reasoning for doing so, might help flesh out their worldview. I'm not holding my breath for that, they seem more inclined to throw out the story and invent their own, but it might be possible.
 
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