morally gray characters

[Aratouial Delafeld]

Someone on The Internets has insisted that there are no morally gray characters in the books, that there is no moral complexity in the world of the Wheel of Time, that it is only good vs. evil, black and white.

I disagree rather vehemently, so I started making a mental list of every character I would consider "morally gray," or a decision bad enough from a "good" character that it makes me rethink their "goodness."

• Mat. He does not respect boundaries and does not really care about consent-- he'll stop at a no, but he does not care about hearing yes first. His primary conflict is between his impulses toward selfish desires and his impulses toward nobility.
• Perrin. He does unspeakable things, including selling women into slavery, to get what he wants and to have his revenge.
  
• Rand. We all know the lengths he goes to during his "hardening" phase, especially the way he handles Graendal.
• Cadsuane. She serves the Light, but is so abusive.
• Tuon. Raised in an authoritarian culture, confronted with a world-shattering truth that she denies in order to save her position and authority. Still fights the Shadow, though, and can come to compromises.
• Faile. Cultural appropriation notwithstanding, she runs a spy ring. No one runs a spy ring and stays morally clean. Also, she is my textbook definition of a character whose ends justify the means.
• Elaida. She is a woman of conviction, and she's is convinced that only her way will save the world. Competent enough to get into power, not competent enough to do well at it.
• I'd argue the very existence of things like the Whitecloaks and Seanchan speak to a very morally gray universe. Rand thinks they're evil and goes to wipe them out, then discovers that maybe he doesn't understand stuff as well as he thought. Galad is capable of being an upstanding, reasonable Whitecloak, and so are the men who serve under him apparently.
• Verin. Double-agents are like the definition of morally gray. She clearly has zero problems with murder.
• Siuan. She thinks her actions are justified, but enough people disagree over that it causes a civil war. Civil War among those faithful to the Light seems pretty darn morally gray.
• Thom. He does a regicide not once, but twice. For "good reasons," probably, but yeah. Also gets pretty motivated by revenge at points.

Who am I missing? What's your biggest "morally gray" moment, or favorite "morally gray" character?

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

Faile is a domestic abuser. I don't care if it's her culture, her relationship with Perrin is abusive. Full. Stop.

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

Alanna. She serves the Light, she is instrumental in the fight, but Bonding Rand against his will is a horror. It's slavery and rape in one.

 

[Toral Delvar]

Moiraine. She was quite willing to have Lan kill people who got in her way, including the boys. And Lan of course. And really, most warders, as they give up their own moral judgement to the the will of their Aes Sedai.

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

I totally get the feeling that Faile is abusive. I don't read it that way, personally, but it's a reading that makes sense.

 

[Hal Bahalla]

Is there anyone who is clearly “good” witbout reservation?

Finding 100% “evil” characters is probably no problem. But it is pretty rare for anyone to be perfectly “good”

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

Eh I think there's a difference between morally gray and good, but complicated, and human. Nynaeve, for example, in my opinion has flaws and has hurt people, but afaik never reached "yeah, sure, take them all for slaves, I don't care" or "balefire a hundred innocent people just to kill one Forsaken" levels of complicated. Even with Moghedien there's lines she won't cross.

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

Moiraine. She was quite willing to have Lan kill people who got in her way, including the boys. And Lan of course. And really, most warders, as they give up their own moral judgement to the the will of their Aes Sedai.

I think the most morally gray thing that Moiraine does is the way she hands Lan's bond off to Myrelle. The bond is like sex. When it's consensual it's wholesome and life affirming, but when it's nonconsensual it's awful and a violation. Both Moiraine and Elayne use bonding to save someone's life without their consent (Moiraine sends Lan to Myrelle to save his life, Elayne bonds Birgitte to save her life) but the two situations feel very different to me, I think because while Birgitte is unable to consent because of her injuries, Lan is actively not consenting.

 

[Leira Galene]

Oh wow, I have always hard a hard time articulating exactly why I don't like Mat very much and your post crystallized that for me. It really bothers me when people are not good with boundaries IRL, and I hadn't precisely made that connection with him, but you're so right. While he does respect the no, it's the not asking/caring about the yes that irks me.

A lot of people point to the whole Egwene threatens Nynaeve with sexual assault in TAR as a reason to not like her. Does that make her morally gray? I'm not sure, like you say there's a difference between good characters doing bad things and truly morally gray characters. I think with her the argument could be made for either side.

 

[Toral Delvar]

Where do we see Mat not caring about boundaries or consent? I think we can say that about Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve, who on at least a couple of occasions tie him up with the Power to get what they want, and later where Elayne and Nynaeve find it amusing that Tylin is basically forcing herself on him.

 

[Alora Sionn]

Yeah there's even a few specific quotes that shows he understands consent

Normally, to him, women were to admire and smile at, to dance with and kiss if they would allow, to snuggle with if he was lucky.

Only if they allow and he considered himself lucky not entitled.

More intently; he had never chased any woman who let him know she did not want to be chased.

The one who doesn't know what consent is is Tylin, my man got raped at knifepoint for goodness sake. And then mocked and laughed at by everyone in the palace and even his friends :/

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

He can be a victim and not be perfect himself. I admit I see worse consent violators than Mat, but I definitely think there's a case to be made that he stops at "no" rather than asking first. Alora, your second quote pretty much says that - "any woman who let him know she did not want to be chased". If she hasn't said no, she's fair game then? (No. It's not.)

 

[Alora Sionn]

Are there any instances or quotes that say he doesn't read the room and flirt with unwilling women that haven't said no but not yes either? I honestly can't remember but from what I do remember, he didn't seem to waste time on women that weren't smiling and flirting back with him. If there are any cases where that wasn't the case please let me know. I feel like just because it wasn't worded to 2021 standards of specifics doesn't mean he was that kinda guy that would ignore a lack of enthusiasm.

 

[Leira Galene]

I'm not calling him a sexual harasser, and I am absolutely not saying it doesn't happen to him or that he deserves it or something. He just tends to assume women are into him until proven otherwise, and that bothers me. People are free to like him, I just personally don't. I'm not even saying it's like, an objectively bad thing. It's just a particular annoyance of mine when people assume you'll like things (eg hugging, for a real life example that bothers me) without asking first. That was an impression I got from him in the books. His way of tending to see women in light of if he can flirt with them or not annoyed me. It's just a personality trait I dislike.

 

[Alora Sionn]

Yeah he did have that attitude of seeing women as either a possible romantic interest and was a bit astounded when he genuinely liked Birgitte without even once thinking of flirting with her, that's why I really love the growth he has during his friendship with Birgitte I'm not saying you gotta love him I was genuinely curious if there was anything I missed because I never got the vibe that he thought he deserved a woman's time that wasn't a mutual thing

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

I'm in Shadow Rising and there's a scene when he does the Renaissance version of catcalling Berelain. When she ignores him, he starts literally shouting at her that unless he sexually assaults her he "expects" a positive response from her.

 

[Toral Delvar]

I'll also go with that - I don't know if there is any character who everyone is going to like, but I couldn't think of any examples of Mat not respecting consent - He doesn't get the chance in the first four books, then is with Melindhra and after, most of the negative thoughts are from Nynaeve and the others who are just trying to force their standards of sexual behaviour onto him.

 

[Elyas]

Finding 100% “evil” characters is probably no problem. But it is pretty rare for anyone to be perfectly “good”

Maybe. But it's also remarkable how often we end up having sympathy for darkfriends. Paitr, Delina, the whitecloak in the prologue to the Great Hunt (forgetting his name) - all of them seem like people who joined a white supremacist cult or terrorist organization and then can't get out. Evil? Most definitely. But also real, human, and worthy of (a limited amount) of sympathy.

To add to the original list, I think Galad and Gawyn are kind of the definition of morally grey. They both have rigid (and different) moral codes and are constantly running up against the edge cases ... doing wrong things despite their best intentions.

 

[Maianel Istor]

To add to the original list, I think Galad and Gawyn are kind of the definition of morally grey. They both have rigid (and different) moral codes and are constantly running up against the edge cases ... doing wrong things despite their best intentions.

Galad to me is definable in D&D terms as lawful neutral. Whether that's "grey" or not probably depends on your own attitude toward the law and the importance of adhering to it.

Gawyn to me is . . . look, my apologies to the people who love him, but toward the end of the series he went from being a character I liked to one I was actively shouting at. But him being an idiot isn't the same thing to me as morally grey. Not like, say, Tuon, who runs an authoritarian slave state and sees nothing wrong with that fact, yet gets counted on the side of the good guys. Or Perrin, who thinks it's okay to sell four hundred women into slavery to get his wife back.

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

Agree re: Gawyn. I don't think his moral code was gray. His goals are all pretty solidly "good" guys goals. Protect Egwene, protect Morgase (avenge Morgase when he thinks she's dead), fight the shadow, protect Andor. His methods don't usually INTEND to put anyone else in danger except himself, and when he attacks somebody he usually has a morally defensible reason, even if he's wrong (when he thinks Rand killed Morgase and is manipulating Elayne).

His big, I would say fatal flaw, is that he can't trust women. He's constantly doubting Elayne and Egwene even while claiming to love and serve them and it gets him into a lot of trouble. But he's just dumb, not immoral.