Men and women : difference feminism in the Wheel of Time

[Ahmyra al'Ruley]

It would be awesome to have a woman like Faile who would want to box with me and expect me to fight back Even though I'm like a Two Rivers guy who would never hurt a woman

There are some women like that out there *cough cough* me *cough*

I think there's one aspect that's being overlooked. At the end of the Second Age, many men went mad. Bad men! I think there was a paradigm shift in the third age in that the women could be trusted to be in control more than men, in general. The system is more of a matriarchy like some American Indian tribes. And that's where you find the superiority complex that some women, especially women who wield the One Power, display. The men, even those that DON'T wield the One Power in the third age, kind of get lumped into the "not to be trusted" category by default.

This!!! Parallel's the Adam and Eve story for Christianity today and the whole "men are the head of the household" nonsense

Although Aran Cherubim said it better than I, I do like looking at the parallel of the breaking of the world to the mythology in our society - In WOT, the men did something bad, and all men are blamed for it and lumped in with them, so the women are trusted to be in charge. In our society's mythology, Eve ate the apple, causing "the breaking," all women were lumped in with her, and so men had to be trusted to run everything.

Its easy to blame entire groups for the actions of a few people, and Jordan might have been trying to show how a society or even a culture can form around one idea like that. Look at the way cultures form around religions all over the world.

I personally like the "take charge" attitudes of the women in WOT for the most part. I think they have a lot to offer the reader about stepping into a role for the sake of duty and growing into that role and responsibility. Except maybe Faile. Maybe.

And sometimes the men are just plain wool-headed. :P

This!!

 

[Leira Galene]

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned Nynaeve ignoring Thom and Juilin in TSR and FOH... when I reread those books, it made me super angry because I sympathize a lot with her. Every time she brings something up, they talk down to her and roll their eyes at her suggestions, generally acting like they know better than that silly woman. As someone who runs into that sort of attitude way more often than I'd like, it's incredibly irritating and as a result, you overcompensate because you're mad. I mean, sure Nynaeve obviously doesn't know everything, but she expects to at least be taken seriously and she is acting how she thinks a leader should, because that's the only way she's ever been able to lead. In the Two Rivers, if she took someone's advice, they'd think less of her, so she developed a persona that she didn't need any help.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get her. It's interesting to me that, despite having so many women in power, that particular situation is so similar to real life examples of sexism. Particularly the kind of sexism that exists in male-dominated fields. It's really hard to keep your cool in situations like that, and she hasn't learned to control her anger (at all) at this point, and even actively encourages it, because it allows her to channel. I think people are way too hard on her, in general.

I guess what's interesting to me is that, while there is definitely a feminist aspect to WoT, there's also sexism in it as well. Even with women in power-- as soon as they lose their power, it frequently returns to a power balance more similar to what you would see here. The example in particular I'm thinking of it with Morgase and Tallanvor, who basically starts seeing her as a love interest to boss around when she loses her throne, even though she has more life experience than him (that romance bothered me a lot). Culturally, going off of what Aran said, I wonder if this would fit in because mean are basically claiming power when they can because they frequently don't get to? Interesting things to think about.

Especially because I just finished The Left Hand of Darkness, which is making me think all sorts of interesting things about gender duality and the cultural effects of it.

 

[Aran Cherubim]

I have to admit, when I read the parts I think you're referring to here, I didn't factor gender in, I just assumed it was because her personality and attitude just rubbed them the wrong way. In contrast, the Malesome Threesome (Rand, Mat, Perrin) are initially really reluctant to take any kind of leading position. Of the three, it's Rand that later goes into "takes-himself-too-seriously" territory, and the Maidens work relentlessy to knock him down a few pegs. In addition... Well, Thom... He seemed submissive to Moiraine, although pretty reluctant to have anything to do with her, so the issue with Nynaeve might just as well be an age thing. He's been around the block a few hundred times more than her. A lot of the inner drama with Nynaeve is invisible to most other characters anyways, so they wouldn't know her motivations, just her actions (which are, in all fairness, often inexplicably brusque). But then I guess you could argue that I'm just mansplaining away gender problems. :P

As for Morgse... honestly, Tallanvor always struck me as being a bit... over the top. In comparison though, the Aes Sedai aren't exactly super-nice to the women they see knocked from power either, whether it be Aes Sedai or former heads of state. I have no problem envisioning men wanting to throw their weight around if they see some fallen female authorities though -- the Children of Light seem to have this as part of their motivation, however indirectly from their hatred of the Aes Sedai (ie. Amadicia has no female healers, nearby Ghealdan and Altara's female heads of state are pressured heavily by the Children, etc.)

 

[Leira Galene]

Yeah, I mean, I'm probably a lot more likely to view things in light of her gender, because I identify with it. It's possible it's age related as well. My thinking was mainly because Thom and Juilin have some reactions very similar to ones I've gotten from (admittedly older, although older here tends to translate to sexist, not ageist) men that I tend to not get from other women. So I'm definitely projecting.

I never thought about the Children in that manner. It's interesting that the Children, an all-male group, are just as disparaging to women as the Aes Sedai are to women. Why are they all male? I'm guessing they probably are too ingrained in the woman=witch idea, much as the Aes Sedai (well, the Reds, at least) are obsessed with the man=monster idea. Interesting counterpart there.

 

[Tobyas Cuendrelle]

oooh i have found the thread where maybe i can express some of my deeply pent-up frustration, and therefore maybe actually be able to get through more of the series 😂

I think - that is just my personal opinion here - that men and women are mostly the same. There are a few differences, either biological or created by society (we receive from infancy an image of what being male or female entails). However, I do think that, ultimately, these differences matter little next to the differences between one individual and the next : men and women don't fundamentally think differently and can understand each other just fine.

💯💯💯
And it's confirmed scientifically afaik! humans have really low sexual dimorphism compared to other species.
After dating somebody where the dynamic was the exact opposite - like i was showing all the traditionally masculine traits and he all the feminine - and every time i very earnestly tried to apply the principles i'd been taught, they completely backfired because our roles were reversed - i really had to examine and throw away all the 'men r box women r spaghetti' clichés 😂 and now i'm so impatient with them

author appeal for bossy women but there are still horrible cases of Double Standards in the books. Women often treat men little better than cattle

completely agree. it's terrible. it's.. it's like it's supposed to be funny? and it's not funny???

progressively gets better as you get closer to the end

Light, does it? i'll hold out hope then
I mean I know Sanderson finished the books, and I imagine [I hope] he didn't port over RJ's particular weird characteristic way of handling gender* along with the lore and the story.

Most of the women can be classified as manipulative, abusive and completely lacking any form of self reflection, while most of the men seem to be completely and utterly unable to interpret any of the women's behaviors, and have painfully chivalristic (I made up that word) ideals

It's in words! beautifully put. rand if you say "ohhh i can't Kill A Woman even if Shes Evil" one more time my eyes are gonna be permanently stuck in the back of my head. empty words! does little to no good for your actual relations with women! just. please murder whatever darkfriend it is for the good of the world 🤦‍♂️
{it's 'chivalric' i believe?}

sorry that you like Faile

Lol i guess i'm another one of the few.. i don't remember disliking her any more or less than any other of the spitfire, quick-tempered women that are [at least at first] All Literally The Same Person 😭

It reminds me of hyper-conservative christian groups that I've been a part of (and left) in the past, where the men and women were almost afraid of each other

Same.
And where the idea is that in a romantic relationship, you almost don't really like each other but you need each other

I don't think gender relations in the books are entirely unrealistic, but they tend to show only the bad kinds of relationships (ie the ones with zero communication)

Exactly. Exactly. It's like, yes, yes, i know this is how it is. {with some people, def not in my personal life.} but it is ugly and petty and bad. If I wanted to immerse myself in this kind of space, I'd have listened to some off-colour comedian, not come to a fantasy world.
and it's like.. the whole men vs. women is implicit in every word! it underlies everything! i can't escape it!
and it's just exhausting and demoralising after long enough. this is why i had to quit the series the first time, and may have to do so again and resort to summaries

rather I find it to be a natural consequence of their history, myths and social reality

WHY RJ wrote the beginings like this, the way it is, with the blatant sexisms and gender roles and such. Was he trying to communicate something? or to contrast something later to make other things seem more significant?

this probably has a bearing on how men are generally treated as "wool-headed" and such. The most powerful people in the world are now women who can channel- men are gentled or killed if they have the ability to wield the One Power. This philosophy of men being inherently flawed probably trickles down through all aspects of society

*Everyone explaining this with in-world logic.. you're right? i think? like from an in-universe perspective it does make sense?
But reading it, it didn't feel like an intentional commentary from the author, or a bit of worldbuilding. It felt primarily like an ingrained attitude of the author himself. It felt like the author was amused by the dynamic and expected me to be as well. There isn't enough irony in it for it to be....
It feels like your cliché Boomer, self-aware of the gender wars in which he's embedded, but also kind of accepting and going along with it. Rolling his eyes tolerantly, and making jokes at its expense that all the bickering couples can laugh at. But without any kind of deeper critique, healing, or presentation of an alternative.
It feels precisely like the kind of perspective, and the kind of humour, that one of the pastors at my old cult/church would've made.
Especially because, at least by book 6, there hasn't been another alternative perspective on men & women. So it makes me think he's just not capable of it! I can't think of one character who consistently looks at people as people first, and not as Man or Woman first, and doesn't make all this snide commentary about it.

....maybe I should read fanfiction. and then I would have a reference point for the characters that isn't steeped in this prejudice

To me, a few fleshed-out queer relationships would've loosened things up a lot. and made everybody, characters and author, question their prejudices. However as ppl have been pointing out.. not really feasible in that time period :'(