Mat and Tylin (Book 7, PG-13)

Aran Cherubim

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As I recall, he was forced at knife point to have sex with her. The point isn't whether he consented or not, the point is that to Tylin, his consent was irrelevant, he never had a chance to. So yeah, definite "it was rape" from my reading of it. (and the idea that rape of a man has to include that man being penetrated I honestly find a bit ridiculous. I definitely see "being made to penetrate" as rape as well.)

Also, I alwys saw it as being played for comedy. Male rape and sexual assault often is (particularly when it's by women). :cheeseeni:


That being said, I study anthropology, and we are dealing with a different society here. Their perception of sexual assault and rape and whatnot may be very different to ours. For one thing, Randland is a lot more socially stratified than modern western liberal democracies. Nobles are held to different law standards than commoners, and Tylin is a Queen. From an emic (culturally internal) point of view, this might just have been her prerogative.

And yet, the book is written by and read by people from our world, so we cannot see it has hovering completely in isolation from RL-mores.
 
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Rhed al'Tere

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I do think Jordan meant it to be funny. In the time he was writing it, it was a thing writers did, the rape that wasn't-really-rape-but-actually-it-was thing...but usually with female characters instead of male. Doesn't make it any less creepy.

And yeah, it's a different culture. It doesn't stop it from being wrong. If a culture thinks it's their right to kill children because they have red hair, that doesn't make it any less wrong.

In the end, we can't entirely remove the time and influences when Jordan was writing, or the culture he was writing about, or how we view consent and the need for it today. It all plays a part in the reading and interpretation.
 

Dnae Ila

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I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing, aside from uncomfortable.
On the one hand, we have the advantage of seeing into Mat's mind, and we are told quite clearly that he has no problem whatsoever with bedding Tylin. The thing he takes issue with is the fact that Tylin is the dominant one and in control, and he feels that as the man, that's his role. Rather sexist of him, really, and I don't mind seeing that attitude take a little beating.

But on the other hand, Tylin doesn't have our advantage and knows none of that. From her perspective, she is just forcing him into a sexual relationship against his will, emotionally manipulating him, abusing her political status to socially intimidate him, and straight up physically bullying and attacking him. And that's not right, by any means.
 

Aran Cherubim

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The thing he takes issue with is the fact that Tylin is the dominant one and in control, and he feels that as the man, that's his role. Rather sexist of him, really, and I don't mind seeing that attitude take a little beating.

That's quite a different reading than my own, I tended to focus on him being miffed about being you know, forced into intercourse at the threat of violence, not being miffed about a woman in power (since he's, you know, from the Two Rivers).
 
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