Main issues?

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So what are your main issues with the show so far?

Here is my short list:
1. MASSIVE focus shift. Because the show wanted to create some mystery around the identity of the Dragon Reborn, they put a lot more focus on other characters of the EF5. However, even AFTER his identity was discovered - they kept the focus away!
This was manifested in several way, but the worst in my opinion is the battle at the end. in the novels, that battle was Rand's first big reveal! a beacon of light destroying the shadow's army, showing himself to the Borderlanders' army.
Instead, this job was given to a random circle of women, who for some reason burnt out even though you're not supposed to suffer that in a circle. This felt forced, like "lets give the women more prominent roles", as if the whole season wasn't already full of women power.

2. The strange Ter'angreal portal. Need I say more? I don't care that they took the hints of lesbian romance from the novels and put them straight out there, that was actually ok. But what the heck was with that portal?! At first I thought, "maybe this is Tel'Aran'Rhiod", but no (unless they deliberately didn't to the small details changing thing).

3. Warders. Forget the missing cloaks and such - why are warders so... pathetic? What happened to emotionless stony faces? Why is Lan suddenly crying like that in a weird ceremony? That was just wrong on so many levels...

Those are my top complaints.
 

Teavin Calayna

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I don't think the Warders have been made pathetic whatsoever for showing emotion rather than being cold and stone faced. This is probably one of the better choices that was made because in media we see too many men who don't show emotion or spread that ridiculous mantra about men being wusses for crying and openly showing their feelings. The majority of the warders in the books have very little characterization beyond being emotionless slabs. We need more media showing men expressing raw emotions like grief and having friendships with one another that are brotherly without being gross and toxic.

That being said, I don't have any major issues with it other than some of the affects being a bit corny looking but I trust these will have been improved by season 2. I dislike what happened to Moiraine towards the end of episode 8 and that didn't feel necessary and too early for that to be brought about. That episode over all was pretty lack luster compared to the rest
 
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I don't think the Warders have been made pathetic whatsoever for showing emotion rather than being cold and stone faced. This is probably one of the better choices that was made because in media we see too many men who don't show emotion or spread that ridiculous mantra about men being wusses for crying and openly showing their feelings. The majority of the warders in the books have very little characterization beyond being emotionless slabs. We need more media showing men expressing raw emotions like grief and having friendships with one another that are brotherly without being gross and toxic.

That being said, I don't have any major issues with it other than some of the affects being a bit corny looking but I trust these will have been improved by season 2. I dislike what happened to Moiraine towards the end of episode 8 and that didn't feel necessary and too early for that to be brought about. That episode over all was pretty lack luster compared to the rest

Lets agree to disagree. While I agree that "men should cry" is true, this is not our own world. Whether it's healthy or not is hardly the point, it's a HUGE shift from the books, and the whole point of the warder bond is that the warders can withstand more than regular soldiers, both psychologically and physically. That scenes was just cringe from start to finish, and so different than the character should have been at this point in the show.

Also, if they make this change, it will diminish Rand's "we need to be vulnerable men" revelation with the Asheman.
 

Catt Heckathorne

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Friendly neighborhood anthropologist with a speciality in mortuary practices here.

The crying and "weird ceremony" was taken directly from Daniel Henney's Korean ancestry. It's a type of funerary tradition in which a person is singled out to release the grief of a community. It's not a new idea and it's not weird. Multiple cultures worldwide practice this idea of grief release.

It makes sense to demonstrate that kind of funerary tradition. RJ touched in some of the funerary practices in New Spring, but remember, he created Randland as an amalgamation of multiple real world cultures following a massive upheaval. Which culture remains completely intact and unchanged after 3,000 years?

That funerary tradition was used to show non readers how much the Warder bond means. How else can you effectively describe the mental impact of losing a Warder? It also shows the importance of Tower relationships for nonreaders.

The show is trying to appease the longtime readers and also create new fans who have never read the books. The film medium can never totally capture the world of WoT in the same way as RJ did. Millions of imaginations have run wild with the books. Of course the film will be different from the books. It's a new Turning for a truly massive work.
 
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Friendly neighborhood anthropologist with a speciality in mortuary practices here.

The crying and "weird ceremony" was taken directly from Daniel Henney's Korean ancestry. It's a type of funerary tradition in which a person is singled out to release the grief of a community. It's not a new idea and it's not weird. Multiple cultures worldwide practice this idea of grief release.

It was weird in the context of the show/books, no matter if it is not weird in some cultures. That's not relevant. See my comments above.
 

Rhed al'Tere

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I’m another you’ll have to agree to disagree with. I don’t think the Warders are pathetic at all. I think having the expectation that humans be completely stoic and never show emotion is far too high and too fantastical even for a fantasy show. Lan, in the show, is fairly stoic. I thought the scene of the funeral was quite touching and showed how deeply he was feeling the loss of a Battle Brother. It makes for far more interesting characters to have them lounging and laughing together at a campfire, grieving for a brother, grieving for a lost Aes Sedai.

I agree re: your first point though. I didn’t like that the women burned out in a link, and I didn’t like that these randos were the ones to fight the trolloc hoard rather than Rand, the most powerful channeler ever. They’ve definitely not shown that Rand is the most powerful ever. Underwhelming.
 

Teavin Calayna

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Lets agree to disagree. While I agree that "men should cry" is true, this is not our own world. Whether it's healthy or not is hardly the point, it's a HUGE shift from the books, and the whole point of the warder bond is that the warders can withstand more than regular soldiers, both psychologically and physically. That scenes was just cringe from start to finish, and so different than the character should have been at this point in the show.

Also, if they make this change, it will diminish Rand's "we need to be vulnerable men" revelation with the Asheman.

There's nothing to suggest that Warders still can't withstand more than regular soldiers by having a scene showing them mourning or them sitting down relaxing with one another making jokes and laughing. Warders in the books don't engage much with one another very much and that wouldn't make for interesting viewing of these men just standing around glowering all the time. The change brings some humanity to them that doesn't exist much in the books and makes the viewer care more for them and become more invested. I don't care for most of the Warders in the books because they haven't been given much in terms of character or personality. I'm more emotionally invested in these characters on the show because more life has been breathed into them than what they're initially given
 

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Did they perhaps use the Trolloc battle and the burning out of the randos to illustrate the danger of using the Power? They probably could have illustrated that later in Season 2 or something, because I agree: Rand should have come in and shown what he was made of.
 
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For me so far (im on episode 5)

1) Loial - just looks wrong. I know this is subjective but I honestly didnt like it. Voice and manner is fine but otherwise nope.

2) No Caemlyn - This sets up so much later with the meeting with Elayne and Gil.

3) No 'ways' - cmon this better be in there later.

4) Toms singing - Please don't sing again.

I did like the extra bits with Logain and have enjoyed seeing the interplay between warders and Aes Sedai.
 

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For me so far (im on episode 5)

1) Loial - just looks wrong. I know this is subjective but I honestly didnt like it. Voice and manner is fine but otherwise nope.

2) No Caemlyn - This sets up so much later with the meeting with Elayne and Gil.

3) No 'ways' - cmon this better be in there later.

4) Toms singing - Please don't sing again.

I did like the extra bits with Logain and have enjoyed seeing the interplay between warders and Aes Sedai.
I'm 100% with you there on Loial's look and Tom's singing. I expected Loial to be bigger and have longer eyebrows. And Tom's voice is anything but melodic. It's not enough to ruin the show for me....just ways in which it differed from the books that I would have preferred they stayed the same.
 

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The one thing which bothered me was more of a continuity matter. When they came out of the Ways to FD. No eye squinting from dark to light action going on. It irked me more than it should've.
 
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So I thought the show was ok, they obviously had some trouble with casting and Covid so I will hold out for Season 2 and hope for some improvement.

These were my criticisms of the show, I know not everyone will agree and I hope none of what I post offends anyone, I intend the points only for discussion and not to upset anyone.

Lan being Stony Faced
I think my problem with Lan being stony faced is a difficult one to address on screen. The reason Lan works as stone faced in the books is we now his emotional state thanks to the emotional connecting of the bonding - we can't really potray that visually. I did not like his overt display of emotion at Stepins funeral, it didn't feel like Lan to me.

Matts personality
I am not a big fan on how they Matt into a thief, Matt from the books would not steal an expensive necklace from someone in the village - he is a prankster and a clown, not a thief. They did the same with Matts family as well - making them into terrible people.

Perrins Wife
Not a big fan of the changes to Perrins starting story, I understand it is a way to show Perrins conflict with his inner rage and is a sort of opener to the Axe/Hammer internal conflict Perrin wrestles with during the books. I just think it was a cheap way to do it and then Perrin just carries on with barely a thought for his now dead wife.

The mystery of the Dragon
While the Dragon wasn't known in the books straight away it was clearly always going to be a man, I am not sure why they needed to include Nynaeve and Egwene in the potential dragons - it made very little sense. The whole premise of the Dragon is that it will be a man fated to break and remake the world - the Karatheon prophecies state "He" and "His" multiple times, so do the Aeil and Seafolk prophecies, it cannot be more clear. Moiraine was well versed in the prophecies and even fetched the fat man Saidin Angreal.

The Diversity of Emonds Field
Ok so this one is controversial and might upset some people, which I promise is not my intention. Emonds Fielders looked far too different for me, they looked like people from all over the world, instead of an isolated community with little contact to the wider outside world. Egwene was good casting imo, dark skin, hair and eyes. This makes sense in the books because Rand always looks the odd one out - being pale and redhead like the Aiel. I understand that modern casting needs to take diversity into account but there is so much opportunity for diversity among the wider WoT world, with the people and cultures being so different.

The ending at the EotW

I wasnt a fan of the ending - it felt like a mashup of Rands final confrontation with the Dark One, the Aes Sedai ter'angreal doorway trials and the multiverse Portal Stone lives. I just feel at this point we got too much Moridin and not enough Ishamael (hope that makes sense). I was also really, really looking forward to seeing Rand create havoc at Tarwins Gap.

Now I feel like I have criticised the show a lot and for the sake of balance I am going to find a thread with things I liked about the show (there were a lot).
 

Satara al'Caelahn

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Thanks for reviving this thread, SilentRoamer! I didn't post here when the show first came out because I was too busy defending it from haters. :laugh:

My main issues were a little personal in the sense that there were so many scenes that I'd imagined, that I wanted to see on the screen. And there was no real reason that I couldn't have seen those things but I didn't because the storyline changed. And I know that there were reasons for some of those changes (e.g. funding, covid, location, time, etc.) but I still felt the loss of the things I wanted to see.

My biggest peeve? The entire last episode. More importantly how they set up the Dragon to be a mystery. It created this huge disconnect between Rand's actions and our understanding of those actions and it just made him look like a whiny jerk, and then when they try to explain his actions, it doesn't really come across. People who weren't familiar with the books were left more confused than before. Not to mention that he was supposed to save everyone at the end. And I know they wanted to avoid that whole "white guy swoops in to save the natives" trope, but I think it really impacted the story and how it comes across there at the end. They severely castrated those ending scenes.

The Diversity of Emonds Field
Ok so this one is controversial and might upset some people, which I promise is not my intention. Emonds Fielders looked far too different for me, they looked like people from all over the world, instead of an isolated community with little contact to the wider outside world. Egwene was good casting imo, dark skin, hair and eyes. This makes sense in the books because Rand always looks the odd one out - being pale and redhead like the Aiel. I understand that modern casting needs to take diversity into account but there is so much opportunity for diversity among the wider WoT world, with the people and cultures being so different.

I actually agree that this bothered me. Not the diversity in the sense that there were a lot of POC in the show. Not at all. It bothered me in the sense that Emond's Field was supposed to be isolated and mainly ONLY descendants from Manetheren. For what? A thousand years or so? Those bloodlines would have blended over that much time and the ethnicity of Emond's Field would have been a lot more uniform. There's a reason that Rand always stood out among them. After the Breaking, there was generally less travel, people in general were more isolated where they were than they'd been in the Age of Legends. But that's not reflected in the casting. It's a small peeve in the grand scheme of things, but still.

I'm not too fussed about Perrin's wife. Mat's overall personality sort of irked me, but I'm hoping that it has time to develop more. I'm more bothered by Mat's parents and how they essentially turned Mat's whole family into little more than drunken beggars. Mat deserves better. Lan's funeral scene was weird, but I agree that it's hard to tell the audience that a person has emotion when they don't actively show it. Even so that scene was weird. Beautiful. Heartbreaking. But out of character. I still think Warders are bad*ss.

The Ways bugged me. I think they looked really fake and not frightening at all. I would have been happy if the only things we could see in that episode were the characters and the pock-marked ground they walked on because that was as far as the light could reach. The acting should have carried it more than the scenery.

I'm bothered that Moiraine sent word to the Red Ajah to go after Mat. I'm bothered that Mat left (I know, I know, there's good RL reasons, but still). I'm bugged that it's insinuated that Siuan would be Moraine's downfall. I'm bothered that she was "shielded" at the end, because we know she's not stilled. I'm bothered by the lack of palm-sized seals. I'm bothered that Bela wasn't referred to by name. I'm bothered that Mashadar was more flat shadowy darkness than 3D smoke.

That being said... I don't hate the show. I love that we saw more Logain and I have high hopes for a few of the changes I saw.
 
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I actually agree that this bothered me. Not the diversity in the sense that there were a lot of POC in the show. Not at all. It bothered me in the sense that Emond's Field was supposed to be isolated and mainly ONLY descendants from Manetheren. For what? A thousand years or so? Those bloodlines would have blended over that much time and the ethnicity of Emond's Field would have been a lot more uniform. There's a reason that Rand always stood out among them. After the Breaking, there was generally less travel, people in general were more isolated where they were than they'd been in the Age of Legends. But that's not reflected in the casting. It's a small peeve in the grand scheme of things, but still.

Yeah that's exacty my point - nothing to do with PoC representation - after all there are lots of nations and they all have a distinctness. If everyone looks different - then Rand doesn't stand out. You need a uniformity if you are to have an exception.

The Ways bugged me. I think they looked really fake and not frightening at all. I would have been happy if the only things we could see in that episode were the characters and the pock-marked ground they walked on because that was as far as the light could reach. The acting should have carried it more than the scenery.

I'm bothered that Moiraine sent word to the Red Ajah to go after Mat. I'm bothered that Mat left (I know, I know, there's good RL reasons, but still). I'm bugged that it's insinuated that Siuan would be Moraine's downfall. I'm bothered that she was "shielded" at the end, because we know she's not stilled. I'm bothered by the lack of palm-sized seals. I'm bothered that Bela wasn't referred to by name. I'm bothered that Mashadar was more flat shadowy darkness than 3D smoke.

That being said... I don't hate the show. I love that we saw more Logain and I have high hopes for a few of the changes I saw.

Yeah I think Machin Shin and Mashadar could have been better. I much preferred the Machin Shin in the books - just whispering about evil and dreadful things, although I can see why they made that change.

Mashadar would have been better as a 3D smoke I agree.

I didn't hate the show either, I will definitely be watching Season 2 - my criticisms are because I hold the books in such high regard and I really want the show to be a success and bring more readers to WoT.

Logain might have been my favourite change in the show, along with the Trolloc and costume design.
 

Teavin Calayna

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I still think they made the right decision in giving Lan and the other Warders over all a lot more personality than they have in the books. They always felt very one note, with a few exceptions, to me in the books of being these hard faced men who aren't really shown to have an emotional range beyond that. They're far more engaging in showing they have emotions and do more than stand around glowering at everyone and everything who so much as breathe near their Aes Sedai. Obviously Lan does have more of an emotional range in the books but I think the show did a good job of deepening it. Why shouldn't he release his feelings over a fallen comrade and friend?
 
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I still think they made the right decision in giving Lan and the other Warders over all a lot more personality than they have in the books. They always felt very one note, with a few exceptions, to me in the books of being these hard faced men who aren't really shown to have an emotional range beyond that. They're far more engaging in showing they have emotions and do more than stand around glowering at everyone and everything who so much as breathe near their Aes Sedai. Obviously Lan does have more of an emotional range in the books but I think the show did a good job of deepening it. Why shouldn't he release his feelings over a fallen comrade and friend?

It's not that he shouldn't, more that he wouldn't. For Lan, a clenching of the jaw is equivalent to another mans scream of rage. Lan as a character holds himself to an insane standard in terms of his control, it is one of the reasons he is such a great warrior - he is constantly in a state of Oneness. It is not that I think Lan should have no emotions - it is because his character as potrayed in the books has such a strong sense of emotional control, I am not arguing this is a positive things or not, just that the show version of Lan is different from the book version of Lan and I preferred the book version.

Lan would release his feelings over a friend, every Trolloc head that he lopped off would make him feel that little bit better :)
 

Satara al'Caelahn

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I still think they made the right decision in giving Lan and the other Warders over all a lot more personality than they have in the books. They always felt very one note, with a few exceptions, to me in the books of being these hard faced men who aren't really shown to have an emotional range beyond that. They're far more engaging in showing they have emotions and do more than stand around glowering at everyone and everything who so much as breathe near their Aes Sedai. Obviously Lan does have more of an emotional range in the books but I think the show did a good job of deepening it.

Absolutely, for sure. If the show gave us a bunch of emotionless trolls for Warders, that would feel odd, for starters, but it would also not be very engaging. Like I said above, they have to show emotion in order for the audience to understand that it's there because the show doesn't have the benefit of narration. I like their individuality and I've thoroughly enjoyed Alanna's warders.

Why shouldn't he release his feelings over a fallen comrade and friend?

Never said that he shouldn't, because doing so is healthy. It's just not what he would have done in the books. And also because it wasn't just Lan's feelings. He was a representative of ALL their grief. And I think because of that, because he was showing so much more outward emotion than everyone else in that room, it was the exact opposite of what we know Lan to normally be like. Usually, he's the one showing less emotion than everyone else. In that scene in particular, he was showing much more than everyone else and the contrast went against what was normal for that character.

That's in no way saying that it was a bad scene. I'm not saying that Lan shouldn't grieve or have a normal range of emotions. I'm not saying that the Warders shouldn't have personalities. I'm saying that that scene in particular was out of character for what we know about Lan from the books.
 

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I didn't mean to imply you were saying he couldn't, that was bad wording on my part. This does also come to personal preference as well since I like show Lan over book Lan the same as I like Show Alanna over Book Alanna. Lan is still Moiraine's hard faced Warder but we see him different lights too of being soft and reflective which I enjoy. I don't think it was so out of character as he was manifesting the grief of everyone else at the funeral in a display of open, raw emotion since that is a very human thing but that's just my opinion. Lan and Warders overall are harder to translate from page to screen in a way that makes them more relatable to the audience. Especially if the audience hasn't read the books. Though I believe many have since watching the show and they will be in for some surprises :laugh:

I 100% agree that they couldn't present Warders as they are in the books where they don't really have much characterization. I don't like every change made but things can only go up from here with season 2 now that we've had the set up with season1 and can get into the meat of the story
 

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I think that the latter half of the television show was really affected by COVID, as well as losing the actor for Mat.

Re Lan: I think that, in the books, we don't see Lan express a lot of emotion, because we don't really see him in places that he considers private enough to express emotion. I believe that is done well in the television show, too.
 

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I think that, in the books, we don't see Lan express a lot of emotion, because we don't really see him in places that he considers private enough to express emotion. I believe that is done well in the television show, too.

Agreed. Overall, I love that we're getting more backstory, more private moments, and more insight into Lan, and not only Lan, but a ton of other characters that didn't get a lot of "screen time" in the books. They're doing a good job of making these characters multi-faceted and relatable.

It's just that one Lan scene that doesn't fit with the rest, imo.

And it's not even a big peeve of mine. :laugh:
 
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