How do you identify a seal on the Dark One's prison?

Kitan Tataru

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(I thought of this question while reading some theory stuff on Dragonmount)

So Rand has all the seals to the Dark One's prison. The thing is: How do we know all those seals are real? There's no test. People just look at them and go, "oh yeah, that's a seal."

Why is this important? Because if at least one of Rand's seals is a fake, then when he travels to Shayol Ghul to break them to begin Tarmon Gai'don...bad things could happen. What if one is a fake and the Dark One breaks it himself? That could have unforeseen consequences.

:cheeseeni:
 

Lenore Carvoe

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If I remember correctly, they all have a kind of evil aura as long as they're intact. Nynaeve and Elayne feel this when they travel with "their" seal in Valan Luca's menagerie, and said aura was gone when the seal was smashed to pieces.
 

Kitan Tataru

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Oh, true...it's been a while since i read any of the books besides 12 and 13 :look: :look: :look:

Did they feel the evil from the seal that Taim gave Rand? Taim's obviously a Darkfriend, so why would he give Rand a seal?
 
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I think for a short while the DO was actually trying to get his minions to get Rand to break all the seals early ... thereby not being prepared for his unleashed power. This also made it so that Taim would have Rand's trust. Well, at least enough to allow him to lead the Asha'man, which now leads us to a very precarious predicament.
 
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Wasn't there a seal or two that were broken already when they were found? So wouldn't there have been no evil aura around them for whomever to know whether it was a real broken seal or not?
 

Ty al'Djinn

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Well, there's also the bit about seals being unique items made of Cuendillar, which wasn't exactly common.
 

Kitan Tataru

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True. But how distinguishable is cuendillar? Its most defining trait is that it doesn't break, and the broken seals are...well, broken.

What does cuendillar look like, anyway? I always imagined it looking kind of like ceramic (except not breakable). But I may be forgetting a description from the books; I haven't read them in forever.
 

Ty al'Djinn

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Cuendillar itself does not have any distinguishing marks, however-

Everything ever made of heartstone was recorded in the White Tower, and those seven were remembered above all (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 5).

That refers to the seals on the dark one's prison- basically, when they were made, they were recorded into the tower, and because cuendillar is made with the one power, it can be easily identified with it as well. The only thing that can destroy cuendillar is the True Power, which isn't a threat until later in the series.

That probably means Rand will be breaking all the seals with the true power, unless they are already all degraded enough to simply shatter.

The Cuendillar seals did not in and of themselves radiate evil in the first place- they were anchors for weaves, helping keep the weaves of Saidin that bound the Dark One in place- the problem is, though, that without Saidar, the Dark One could reach out and corrupt the seals, weakening the hold of Saidin on his prison, and causing some of the seals to become fragile and decayed- or even broken.
 

Kitan Tataru

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The thing is that the White Tower was founded after the Breaking and Time of Madness. After the knowledge of the weave for cuendillar was lost but before the Tower was founded it's very possible that pieces of cuendillar were also lost in the chaos (and thus not recorded in the Tower). Not to mention that the Forsaken would know the weave to make cuendillar (after all, they're AS from the Age of Legends), so it's very possible they could make counterfeit seals.

Btw, I like the way you think, Ty :)
 

Ty al'Djinn

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The pieces were not lost until the Trolloc Wars, if I remember correctly- the title of the Amyrlin is Watcher of the Seals, after all- it's a very important part of her job description.

So, while counterfeit seals could be made, the trick here is that the Forsaken, the only people with the knowledge of how to do it, would not know where the seals were either. Because of this, when you have the various Forsaken having escaped so recently in the overall timeline, the likelihood of any Forsaken actually being able to pull off a counterfeit is extremely slim. Even more slim when you remember Lews Therin made them himself right before sealing the bore- the Forsaken would have first had to obtain access to the most closely guarded secrets, sealed to the flame. Perhaps Alviarin was working towards that goal, but we won't know now.


And thank you!
 

Kitan Tataru

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I don't know if one could say that how to make the seals and such is Sealed to the Flame - as far as I know, "Sealed to the Flame" means sealed to the White Tower and/or Amyrlin Seat, and as you mentioned, the Tower lost track of the seals.

Hmm...did the Aes Sedai of the time of the books (Moiraine, etc) know what the Seals look like and such? Moiraine seemed to recognize the first one on sight...
 

Ty al'Djinn

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Sealed to the Flame is, if I recall, sealed to the Amyrlin Seat- there are records only she may look at, that was probably one of them. Any Aes Sedai at the time of the books that were trusted enough by the Amyrlin or read enough ancient texts should have been able to figure out what they looked like.

And of course, the Aes Sedai teardrop symbol certainly helped narrow things down, as did where the first seal was found- after that, it was just a matter of comparing each to the first.
 
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Even more slim when you remember Lews Therin made them himself right before sealing the bore-

Well sort of, there's no recorded history of who actually created the cuendillar focus points.

It's a good bet that LTT was involved in group channeling effort to create the actual seals, but there's no way to say who created the physical cuendillar discs.

Could have been him I guess, but that would be conjecture not hard fact.
 

Ty al'Djinn

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Close to the end of the War of Power, the Shadow was gaining more ground and The Hall of Servants sought a way to end the Shadow's touch on the world. An Aes Sedai named Latra Posae wanted to use two huge sa'angreal to close the Pattern where the Bore was located. Latra apparently was a speaker of great force and persuasion and gathered many people to her cause, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with all female Aes Sedai of significant strength in the One Power. This was called the "Fateful Concord," and included an agreement not to aid Lews Therin in his own plan.

Lews Therin wanted to place seals on the bore to cut off the Shadow's touch. This plan needed six male and seven female Aes Sedai of moderate strength. He had made seven cuendillar disks with the symbol of the Aes Sedai to use as focus points for the weaves that would seal the Bore. Latra’s maneuvering, however, made his plan much more difficult to implement.
Before Latra's own plan could be executed, the place where the access keys for the sa'angreal were located fell to the Shadow, leaving no way to access the power of the sa’angreal safely. By this time, the Shadow gained more ground and the Light had not had a significant gain in two years.
With Latra’s plan no longer viable, a group of powerful male Aes Sedai known as "the Hundred Companions" and a force of ten thousand war-men went with Lews Therin to launch an attack on the Bore. The exact events of that day can never be known, but some details have survived. The Dragon and his Companions arrived at the Bore to find a meeting of the thirteen most powerful Forsaken Aes Sedai. The Companions struck, quickly and efficiently placing the seals safely without ripping the Dark One's prison wide open. Forty-five of the Companions died in the struggle, and the war-men took a much higher casualty; according to “The Strike at Shayol Ghul,” none of the war-men ever returned. In addition, the remaining Companions went insane on the spot from the taint on saidin that resulted from the Dark One’s counterstroke. Nevertheless, in one stroke they took out the Shadow's touch and His leadership. With the seals safely placed, the disks were carefully hidden.
(References: The World of Robert Jordan’s “The Wheel of Time” and “The Strike at Shayol Ghul”)

From the Tar Valon Library.

I don't own the World of Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time", so I have to take our article's word for it, but I would be happy to have a quote from the book itself if anyone can provide one. It would likely solve the question!
 

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As for how Moraine knew it was a seal, you have to remember she dedicated her life to the Dragon Reborn. She did extensive research befitting of a Brown. She probably knew all about the seals before she set off to the Two Rivers, or at least enough to recognize one. Its the ancient Aes Sedai symbol, which the Aiel Prophecy says the Dragon Reborn will unite the world under or something. So she knew what the symbol was, although I wouldn't doubt a lot of the tower knows what the symbol is. So its not hard to imagine that Moraine knew a seal on sight.
 
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From the Tar Valon Library.

I don't own the World of Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time", so I have to take our article's word for it, but I would be happy to have a quote from the book itself if anyone can provide one. It would likely solve the question!

I do and it doesn't.

Most of the information about the seals comes The Strike at Shayol Ghul and that only mentions the focus points and makes no mention of who constructed them

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

The BWB doesn't shed any better light either

One of the most daring plans, proposed by Lews Therin Telamon, centered around a direct attack on the bore itself, to reseal the bore and cut the Dark One’s access to the world. Without the Dark One’s touch, the world would have a chance to return to normal. Seven indestructible cuendillar disks, made with the One Power and marked with the seal of the Aes Sedai, were prepared to function as “focus points” (there seems to be no better translation from the Old Tongue). The strike was to be carried out at Shayol Ghul, the one place on earth where that thinness in the pattern makes the bore detectible. A raiding force consisting of soldiers for security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male would travel there and implant seals held by the focus points.

It's certainly possibly he personally made the physical focus points, however there is not really any evidence either proving it or disproving it.

It's probably more likely he had someone with a stronger talent for making cuendillar do it at his direction rather than physically doing it himself. Although its not out of the question he did it.
 

Ty al'Djinn

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That would make sense- thanks Axis.
 

Jaryd Kosari

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Slightly off-topic question: I'm fairly certain that past a certain point, men cannot Link without having a woman present in the Circle. We also know for sure that women were not involved with sealing the bore,at all. So how, exactly, did the 100 Companions band together to seal the Bore? :scratch
 
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Slightly off-topic question: I'm fairly certain that past a certain point, men cannot Link without having a woman present in the Circle. We also know for sure that women were not involved with sealing the bore,at all. So how, exactly, did the 100 Companions band together to seal the Bore? :scratch


Correct, they did it without linking. Each channeller weaving flows individually rather than being directed through the leadership of a circle.

Dangerous, risky and more difficult............. but possible.

Men can't link without a woman at all.

The rules:

Forming the circle: Gender-based limitations heavily influence the formation and structure of a circle. A woman must be the one to form the link, though she is sometimes able to pass control of it to a man once she has done so. Without a man, the maximum number of channelers the circle can hold is thirteen. With the addition of a man, bringing to total to fourteen, an additional thirteen female channelers are possible, reaching twenty-seven. After this, only eight female channelers can be added with the addition of one male channeler, up to the limit of seventy-two total channelers.

With three exceptions, there must always be a greater number of women in the circle than there are men. These exceptions are a circle of one man and a one woman, two men and one woman, or two men and two women.

Leadership: When a link is formed between channelers, only one of them guides the flows for the weave. The channeler chosen to guide the flows is the leader of the link. This person is also the one who decides when the circle ends, as only the leader can break the link. Within the confines of certain gender-based limitations, control of a circle is usually determined by what skills are necessary for the task at hand. Leadership may pass between numerous inviduals during the life of the circle, as it is not necessary for one person to remain the leader throughout.

In most circle formations, control can be passed to either a man or woman, but some circles limit which gender must lead. If there are only the minimum number of men present, a woman must lead, with three exceptions. A man must lead if the circle has seventy-two members, if the circle has only one man or one woman, or if it is a circle fewer than thirteen members with more than one man.

Increase in abilities: When linked, channelers combine their strength in the power to a certain degree, which is directed by the leader of the circle. The power of the leader of the circle is stronger than his individual power, but less than the cumulative power of all the channelers in the circle. This is because linking does not stack the power of channelers on top of each other, but rather combines it in a way that only allows a portion of their power to be contributed to the weaving.

This combination of strength, though useful, is not the main benefit of a link. If they are not linked, no two channelers can combine their flows to work on the same weave. The leader of a link is able to do so, directing multiple flows of great power at a single weave, allowing for weaves that are impossible or extremely difficult for individual channelers.
Additionally, individual members have affinities for each of the five powers that are able to be passed on, temporarily, to the leader. Talents are not passed on in such a way, and if a weave requires a certain talent then the leadership must be passed to a channeler in the circle who possesses it.

Though many different ratios of male to female are possible, the more balanced the gender of a circle the more effective it is. The most powerful ones keep the ratio as close to 1:1 as possible. For example, the most powerful balance for a circle would be thirty-five men and thirty-seven women. The greatest works in the Age of Legends were accomplished by such circles, as it seems that men and women working together are far more effective then working apart. A smaller circle of more balanced members is often more efficient and more productive.

When circles were used in the Age of Legends they were highly organized, with channelers chosen specifically for the task required. Certain balances of male to female, and the strenghts of the individual channelers in the different Five Powers, were believed to be more effective for certain activities. Perhaps the best known example of this was the belief that Lews Therin Telamon's plan to seal the bore in the Dark One's prison could not be accomplished without female Aes Sedai, both to form the circle and for the dexterity required for such a delicate task.
 
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Kitan Tataru

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I was wondering what the rules for circles were...thanks, Axis :)
 
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