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Elaida and Niall corrupted by Fain

Ibon Caseï

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I've read the series... I don't know how many times before.. And yet I never noticed this bit. Chapter 28, book 6 I think it was:

Padan Fain is referring to Elaida and Pedron Niall, that he's "brushed them both with what he carried from Aridhol; they might possibly trust their own mothers, but never Al'Thor now".

This means that Elaida wasn't just going mad with power.. She was tainted with the "lawful evil" corruption of Shadar Logoth. There's a REASON she seemed to have lost much of her scheeming intelligence in the end... She was sick!

Same with Pedron Niall too, but it's much more visible in Elaida because we see more of her.

This gives me a very different perspective on Elaida in particular.. Maybe she hadn't been so completly unreasonable if she hadn't met Fain..?

What do you think? Did you notice that passage?
 

Morgana Arakos

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Nope, I definitely missed that! Interesting!
 

Ilissa al'Nari

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Yes, I remember that, and thought some of the same thing. That might also have been a reason it was so easy for Alviarin to manipulate her later on -- if she knew Padan Fain had had close interactions with Elaida (and I think it is reasonable to assume she would have?) she might have an easier time finding triggers and the like too. Imagine, first being under Padan Fain's spell, and then led around by the nose by Alviarin?
 

Aduiavas Ida

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I believe this too. It doesn't explain everything, Elaida did plenty of stupid decisions all on her own, but it explains the later almost mad descent for Elaida. Maybe the same can be said for Masema? He was in contact with Fain in Fal Dara maybe?
 

Toral Delvar

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I think she would have been totally unreasonable if she hadn't met Fain, but he did make absolutely sure
 

Alexr al'Petros

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This is fascinating and insightful hypothesis, particularly given that the Evil of Shadar Logoth (which was birthed in suspicion and hate) would be transferred such that Eliada and Niall grew to become more suspicious and hateful. Eliada's descent into that was well documented; it would have been interesting to see Niall's character survive a bit longer to see a similar effect.
 

Nadezhda al'Lanahrin

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I remember that, but it's been awhile now, so that's interesting!!

Elaida is my most favorite characters, so that's interesting to think about.
 

Elucia Nileran

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I think you are right. I didn’t catch that before but I will definitely be looking for that in my next reread.
Is the Shadar Logoth corruption really “lawful evil?” I never really considered putting it on the alignment chart.
 

Jocasta Braithe

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I believe this too. It doesn't explain everything, Elaida did plenty of stupid decisions all on her own, but it explains the later almost mad descent for Elaida. Maybe the same can be said for Masema? He was in contact with Fain in Fal Dara maybe?
Masema was absolutely, definitely, in contact with Fain in Fal Dara. Wasn't he mentioned by name as one of the soldiers guarding Fain while he was imprisoned there?
 

Ibon Caseï

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I think you are right. I didn’t catch that before but I will definitely be looking for that in my next reread.
Is the Shadar Logoth corruption really “lawful evil?” I never really considered putting it on the alignment chart.
Aridhol was described as being paranoid afraid of all forces of the dark, to the point where they shut the city gates and isolated themselves from the rest of the world. The city was then consumed by its own suspicion and paranoid rules.

I believe that it works as a "taint container" when Rand cleans the male half of the source, exactly because it's the very anti-thesis of the dark one's brand of evil. And yet it's still evil. And both Elaida and Niall also grow more rule bound, more narrow minded, more paranoid focused on people following THEIR version of the truth. Whilst the DO even says to "let the lord of chaos rule".

Placing them on opposite ends of the chaotic/lawful scale therefore works.
 

Almira ni'Caldazare

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Elaida wanted to throw Rand in jail in book 1. She had no proof that he had done anything wrong but he made her suspicious. Queen Morgase had to step in and stop the Aes Sedai. Elayne and Gawyn tried to help Rand but Elaida wouldn't listen. Elaida was a jerk in book 1 long before Fain came into it.
Fain may have made Elaida fall faster but I think she was going to let power go to her head weather evil influenced her or not.
 
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Elaida wanted to throw Rand in jail in book 1. She had no proof that he had done anything wrong but he made her suspicious. Queen Morgase had to step in and stop the Aes Sedai. Elayne and Gawyn tried to help Rand but Elaida wouldn't listen. Elaida was a jerk in book 1 long before Fain came into it.
Fain may have made Elaida fall faster but I think she was going to let power go to her head weather evil influenced her or not.
On Elaida's 1st meeting with Rand she also had a foretelling which is most likely why she wanted to keep there so she could get a better understanding of who and what he was. Granted she would most likely have gentled him once she figured out that he could channel, but that's just because she's a Red.
 

Jocasta Braithe

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I doubt she'd have gentled him on the spot, she wasn't involved with "the foulness" was she? Reds aren't allowed to just gentle people left and right. Not rule-abiding ones anyway.
 
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I've read the series... I don't know how many times before.. And yet I never noticed this bit. Chapter 28, book 6 I think it was:

Padan Fain is referring to Elaida and Pedron Niall, that he's "brushed them both with what he carried from Aridhol; they might possibly trust their own mothers, but never Al'Thor now".

This means that Elaida wasn't just going mad with power.. She was tainted with the "lawful evil" corruption of Shadar Logoth. There's a REASON she seemed to have lost much of her scheeming intelligence in the end... She was sick!

Same with Pedron Niall too, but it's much more visible in Elaida because we see more of her.

This gives me a very different perspective on Elaida in particular.. Maybe she hadn't been so completly unreasonable if she hadn't met Fain..?

What do you think? Did you notice that passage?
I forgot about that sequence. I developed a theory that, similar to what happened in Book 14 to the "Great Captains", Greandal made a bit of a mind mess with several world leaders after the "Let Chaos Reign" moment in "Lord of Chaos"
 
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I forgot about that sequence. I developed a theory that, similar to what happened in Book 14 to the "Great Captains", Greandal made a bit of a mind mess with several world leaders after the "Let Chaos Reign" moment in "Lord of Chaos"
I’m interested, what was your theory there with the Great Captains?
 
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I’m interested, what was your theory there with the Great Captains?
In A Memory of Light, it's confirmed that Greandal does some very subtle compulsion on the Great Captains, corrupting their instincts. This made it so they made mistakes like committing too many reserves to plug holes in the formation (Aglemar's use of two companies of cavalry) or Bryne's loss of cavalry to "rescue the Amerlyn". Only the Amerlyn didn't need rescuing.
I figured to help sow chaos in the land, tweaking with Elida's personality a little was something Greandal could and would do. I'm sure you'll note that upon taking the Seat Elida became less forgiving and more convinced that "only she" could see truth and save the world. Which seems a little past what is normal for her based on what we see before she took the Seat.
 

Cattrin al'Modrah

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I'm wondering........Fain was in Fal Dara when the Horn of Valere was stolen. I'm also now wondering how the corruption of the Dark One taints, exactly. Does it work via preexisting characteristics and simply expands on them? That could definitely explain a lot of things, and if Elaida was already a jerk in book 1, the taint likely amplified that.

I'm also wondering if the Dark One's taint could sort of bleed through weak spots in the Pattern, and if political/social power of any sort = weakness.
 
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