Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
Why is it that for Rand, the Al is in the surname, while for Lan it's in his first name?
Al'Thor and Al'Lan
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It's the designation for King, Al'Lan is a King of Malkier. In the Two Rivers it has been many generations since they have been aware of having a King or Queen and a lot of Two Rivers have the Al' in their last names from generations past and the fact that it is a royal designation was lost over time, I think I read somewhere that Manetherin was very proud and so even when the kingdom fell I could see the people adding the al' to their surname in an act of defiance against the destruction of their kingdom.
It gives me the same vibe as Sikhs using Singh and Kaur as surnames, kind of like we are all kings, we're all equal etc
It gives me the same vibe as Sikhs using Singh and Kaur as surnames, kind of like we are all kings, we're all equal etc
Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
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- #3
Yes, but why is it with Rand's surname name but Lan's first name?
Wouldn't it be either Al'Rand or Al'Mandragoran?
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Lan got his name from parents that still remember what Al' means. The meaning of it was lost for generations in the two rivers so I'm willing to bet they at first added it to their last names for the reason I gave but over time as it passed through the generations (you pass last names not first apparently still in Randland) they forgot it was supposed to mean something and just saw it as a cultural thing or a normal part of a name, that's "always been like that", so to Lan the al' in Rand's name means something but to Rand it's just how last names are. Idk if there's anything official that was ever said about why first vs last name happened in the two regions but in my opinion it was so they could pass down the al' through the generations, and since they weren't actually kings didn't add it to their personal name just their family names as a symbol. That's my guess lol
Aulrick Vendour
Gaidin
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- #5
Hmm... So you're saying, it WAS in first names at the beginning, but because it gets lost in time (since the surname is what passes on) they switched it to the surname at some point and now they don't remember what it means?
Interesting... Thanks!
Interesting... Thanks!
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- #6
It is interesting to research if both come from the same source. I actually never thought of that, I just always thought they were different things, it's just that in one part of the world it is used for one thing, and in the other part of the world - for another. Possibly for plot purposes.
For example, in the "nowadays" Two Rivers the al' in al'Thor, al'Vere, al'Seen, etc is a prefix indicating "son of" (I believe), not "king of" as the Malkieri one. This is also the case for the Manetheren king we learn of in Eye of the World - Aemon al Caar al Thorin, and Thorin al Toren al Ban, the grandfather of Aemon and father of Caar.
In the Old Tongue "al" means "of the" or "for the". This is why for example Mat shouts Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar! - "For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the Red Eagle!" So my logic for the Two Rivers names here is more like, they are "of the house of" Thor, Vere, Meara, etc.
From the Companion:
al—(prep.); “for the,” or “of the”; also, a prefix added to the first name of Malkieri kings
Anyway, if someone has read some interview explaining the origin of this, please share.
For example, in the "nowadays" Two Rivers the al' in al'Thor, al'Vere, al'Seen, etc is a prefix indicating "son of" (I believe), not "king of" as the Malkieri one. This is also the case for the Manetheren king we learn of in Eye of the World - Aemon al Caar al Thorin, and Thorin al Toren al Ban, the grandfather of Aemon and father of Caar.
In the Old Tongue "al" means "of the" or "for the". This is why for example Mat shouts Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar! - "For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the Red Eagle!" So my logic for the Two Rivers names here is more like, they are "of the house of" Thor, Vere, Meara, etc.
From the Companion:
al—(prep.); “for the,” or “of the”; also, a prefix added to the first name of Malkieri kings
Anyway, if someone has read some interview explaining the origin of this, please share.
If anyone has the actual citation, please chime in, but IIRC the relevant discussion is close to the beginning of TGH, when Rand is trying to flee Fal Dara and asks a groom at the stables to get his horse. The servant says that an order from Agelmar means the gates have been closed and no one can leave the city, but he feels really bad about it because he assumes Rand is a noble due to the "al".
Whether or not the two monikers ultimately trace their roots to the same source is a bit ambiguous unless it's in the Illustrated Guide or somewhere else, but that just fits the WoT ethos of traditions and names changing over time.
Whether or not the two monikers ultimately trace their roots to the same source is a bit ambiguous unless it's in the Illustrated Guide or somewhere else, but that just fits the WoT ethos of traditions and names changing over time.
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- #8
Yeah, I was basing my suspicion on the "plot purposes" on the whole Fal Dara debacle 
Like, either the Two Rivers surnames or the Malkieri king names have an al', so that Rand can be taken for royalty/nobility in Fal Dara on top of Moiraine starting to dress him fancily. 
Like, either the Two Rivers surnames or the Malkieri king names have an al', so that Rand can be taken for royalty/nobility in Fal Dara on top of Moiraine starting to dress him fancily.
Yeah, I was basing my suspicion on the "plot purposes" on the whole Fal Dara debacle
... and Lan teaching him to say "the ground thirsts"
Aduiavas Ida
Aes Sedai
I think Rand reflects on it at some point in Fal Dara that in the Two Rivers, it originally meant "son of". I don't know if that was just his idea or if it was confirmed.
But that was how last names worked for a long time here in Scandinavia as well. Your last name was your fathers first name, with an -sen or -son after. Or -dotter if you were female. That is why so many people from Scandinavia still have names that end with -sen. Hansen, Olsen, Andersen etc.
It makes sense that al' could be used in the same way in the Two River. Rand son of Thor, though Thor was not his direct father anymore but an ancestor, since the tradition of changing surnames stopped at some point, as it has in Norway...
But that was how last names worked for a long time here in Scandinavia as well. Your last name was your fathers first name, with an -sen or -son after. Or -dotter if you were female. That is why so many people from Scandinavia still have names that end with -sen. Hansen, Olsen, Andersen etc.
It makes sense that al' could be used in the same way in the Two River. Rand son of Thor, though Thor was not his direct father anymore but an ancestor, since the tradition of changing surnames stopped at some point, as it has in Norway...
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- #11
Yeah, I was thinking the same Ida! Thanks for putting into words 
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- #12
I think “ay” is the same, though in that case it got combined with the name - Aymara, Ayellin, Aydaer and we don’t have anywhere near as many examples
Satara al'Caelahn
Aes Sedai
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- #13
I was thinking that it meant "son of" but I couldn't readily find any references to confirm that hunch, but I love the way you explained it.
Though if we assume that theory is true, do you think the "al" designation ever had anything to do with royalty in Manetheren?
Given that the nations of the Borderlands are admitted allies to the fallen kingdom of Manetheren (referenced in a couple places, the one coming to mind is in book 12 or 13 when the Dragon Reborn meets with a group of Borderlands rulers) it would make sense that naming conventions during the Trolloc Wars were similar world wide.
I agree with the assessment that "al" probably means "of" a place or family. The way it is used in the Two Rivers is reminiscent of the Italian "da" from the Renaissance era, Da Vinci meaning Of Vinci. If this rule were to hold true for Borderlanders, and Malkier specifically, it would mean that the naming convention for Malkier, or perhaps only Malkier noble families, would follow the naming methodologies of Asia where the surname is written before the given name.
Of course there is also the distinct possibility that "Al" is meant to be used as an article, like the. Which would line up with the way we see it used in the Borderlands. It would be "The/Lord Lan of House Mandragoran" if the use of "Al" is to indicate nobility.
Personally I'm leaning to the former interpretation over the latter. This is due to Lan's insistence that he is no noble as he has no kingdom to be a noble in. Additionally, he asserts that he must carry on his family's war with the Shadow until he experiences "the mother's embrace". These two things support the possibility that he has always been using his surname as his given name.
Ultimately lynguistics are interesting to review as they change over time. It's a shame no Browns in the books go over any of it. It would have been an interesting side conversation that Verin Sedi could have had upon learning the Dragon Reborn's name.