Age of the Wolfbrothers

[Silencia Roamadred]

Hello all,

So I am really enjoying my first re-read of Wheel of Time. Almost close to finishing EotW.

So we know that Wolfbrothers are not from the Age of Legends but are from before the Age of Legends, before the Power had ever been touched (assuming Elyas and others are reliable narrators). What Age do people speculate the Wolfbrothers come from? I suspect the Wolfbrother Ability were from the early ages of man (I think it is Elyas who talks about the Man and the Wolf in their caves) so I took these as prehistoric abilities that have been spun out again because of the necessity of the Pattern.

Before reading AMoL I really wanted to see more Wolfbrothers turn up at the last battle, but on the other hand it does give Elyas and Perrin a uniqueness on the side of light.

What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[Toral Delvar]

I think we have to be very cautious when people talk about "Age before the Age of Legends" - It is largely just speculation. We don't know how long the Age of Legends lasted, or what event marked the start. Did people in the Age of Legends know about the previous age? Following the end of the series, we know there will be a fourth age, but does that start right away, or are the little references we see from thousands of years later? In general, does an Age always end in some sort of disaster, so that the people barely remember the previous age, or can there be a smooth progress so that people have good memories - in this case, did the people in the Age of Legends actually know that Wolfbrothers were a thing in the (a) previous age, or was it more like the current age,where there were barely remembered stories and legends?

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

I think we have to be very cautious when people talk about "Age before the Age of Legends" - It is largely just speculation. We don't know how long the Age of Legends lasted, or what event marked the start. Did people in the Age of Legends know about the previous age? Following the end of the series, we know there will be a fourth age, but does that start right away, or are the little references we see from thousands of years later? In general, does an Age always end in some sort of disaster, so that the people barely remember the previous age, or can there be a smooth progress so that people have good memories - in this case, did the people in the Age of Legends actually know that Wolfbrothers were a thing in the (a) previous age, or was it more like the current age,where there were barely remembered stories and legends?

This is a good point - i'm pretty sure that the leading thinkers in the AoL were aware of the cyclical nature of the Wheel (at least their philosophy and prophecies say so). Lanfear also directly relates to Rand that the portal stones predate the AoL - which precludes a knowledge that there was a time before the AoL. Avhienda is also unable to read the Glass Columns and doesn't believe even the Aes Sedai of the AoL could have built it. We also know that the wolves have Ancestral memories and they recall men running with wolves before the AoL - they seem a trustworthy source.

There were also Artifacts available which predated the AoL and have links to our world. My speculation is that our world is the First Age, and our prehistoric past (part of the First Age) is where the WolfBrothers were first weaved into the pattern.

My understanding is that Jordan posited that each Age is marked by a distinct changing in the Pattern - as the world re-orders itself to a new age and reorients the weave.

In my opinion the Fourth Age is marked by Avhiendas unborn child - a child who grasps the power continuously, I believe this would become the norm and that One Power Users would become increasingly connected to the source.

So:

First Age > Our age and is ended with the Discovery of the One Power.
Second Age > AoL and is ended with the discovery of the DO and his release into the world.
Third Age > Current Wheel of Time Age which is ended with the successful sealing of the Bore and the marked change in newly born Channelers.

 

[Alexr al'Petros]

Interesting issue, but I think you may still be approaching it linearly, whereas the time seems to be circular in the WoT. So arguably Wolf brothers is a future issue not a past issue (and in a circular understanding, future and past are meaningless). I would consider this also if you think about the timeline as a rising progressive spiral. That timeline is still linear (with a circularity, but still linear).

My thoughts are that it is completely circular, so there will come a time when men in caves will "first" meet wolves. Perhaps that is an Age where the Last Battle did not go so well or even possibly the hubris of man returned us to the Stone Age.

Positing this as solely circular requires a significant mind shift (for me) from my historical progressive thinking model. Interestingly, some academic historians are starting to abandon the progressive linear model (see The Dawn of Everything by Graeber and Wengrow).

 

[Toral Delvar]

Thats an interesting theory

The Fourth Age - Tar Valon Library

library.tarvalon.net

Is what we have on the fourth age - places like "Great Arvalon", Taralan and "court of the Sun" are not third age places, though it i easy to see how Tar Valon could become Great Arvalon. That said, I can't see the Aes Sedai agreeing to rename their cirty. Similarly, Court of the Sun could be Cairhien, but the person named does not have a Cairhienin name.
There is also a quote "all memory was lost", which we know not to be the case, so to me, this suggests something else must happen before the third age becomes the fourth (or happens in thefourth)

So, I think it most likely that the people of the Age of Legends didn't know about Wolfbrothers. But I'm not totally convinced Portal Stones were from an Age before the Age of Legends. As you said, we do see some items and stories from our Age, but which would we be? Age before Age of Legends (first age), the one before that? If Portal Stones were indeed from the first age, then people in that Age were able to channel, and knew enough to create such objects
We could also ask, which Age did the Ogier come to the world? The Ogier seem to all know they came from elsewhere, but does anyone else? Did the people in the Age of Legends, or had they been around so long then that they thought the Ogier originated there?

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

Interesting issue, but I think you may still be approaching it linearly, whereas the time seems to be circular in the WoT. So arguably Wolf brothers is a future issue not a past issue (and in a circular understanding, future and past are meaningless). I would consider this also if you think about the timeline as a rising progressive spiral. That timeline is still linear (with a circularity, but still linear).

My thoughts are that it is completely circular, so there will come a time when men in caves will "first" meet wolves. Perhaps that is an Age where the Last Battle did not go so well or even possibly the hubris of man returned us to the Stone Age.

Positing this as solely circular requires a significant mind shift (for me) from my historical progressive thinking model. Interestingly, some academic historians are starting to abandon the progressive linear model (see The Dawn of Everything by Graeber and Wengrow).

Although the turning is circular, the Ages are clearly defined by the lace of the pattern, so talking about future and past, is consistent if you are talking about Ages within a current turning of the wheel but not about different turnings of the wheel. We know that time exists (because it is one of the greater constraints on the DO), but the linearity of time is only relevant to a current turning.

Thats an interesting theory

The Fourth Age - Tar Valon Library

library.tarvalon.net

Is what we have on the fourth age - places like "Great Arvalon", Taralan and "court of the Sun" are not third age places, though it i easy to see how Tar Valon could become Great Arvalon. That said, I can't see the Aes Sedai agreeing to rename their cirty. Similarly, Court of the Sun could be Cairhien, but the person named does not have a Cairhienin name.
There is also a quote "all memory was lost", which we know not to be the case, so to me, this suggests something else must happen before the third age becomes the fourth (or happens in thefourth)

So, I think it most likely that the people of the Age of Legends didn't know about Wolfbrothers. But I'm not totally convinced Portal Stones were from an Age before the Age of Legends. As you said, we do see some items and stories from our Age, but which would we be? Age before Age of Legends (first age), the one before that? If Portal Stones were indeed from the first age, then people in that Age were able to channel, and knew enough to create such objects
We could also ask, which Age did the Ogier come to the world? The Ogier seem to all know they came from elsewhere, but does anyone else? Did the people in the Age of Legends, or had they been around so long then that they thought the Ogier originated there?

I think the Portal Stones and the Ogier happened at the end of the First Age (our age). They led to the Age of Legends, which seems consistent to me technologically and chronologically.

The Fourth Age stuff you linked is very interesting - hadn't Jordan or Sanderson confirmed that the 4th Age had begun? All very interesting stuff guys and I really appreciate your thoughts. If I could like both of your posts I would do!