About Taim, 100th time

[Tehmpus]

Tazren, actually tons of people have seen and know Taim. He was one of the most famous people in all of Saldea by proclaiming himself as the dragon reborn. He had followers, an army, which apparently had some run-ins with Davram Bashere. I wouldn't say that Taim was especially secretive. If Ishamael is impersonating Taim (as you think) I believe that he simply could not risk running into someone who knows Taim, so he'd have to impersonate him pretty much exactly.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

But there's a difference between impersonating something the general public knows, and impersonating another person's best friend or something. That's what I mean - people knew him from a distance. And they knew him as a False Dragon. He's not a False Dragon anymore, so any minor differences could be excused by mentioning his new role. All he'd have to do is avoid (or kill) people who know him intimitely. Most of the world, especially where he is at the moment, have probably never even seen him, so I'd say he's pretty safe.

Mesaana impersonated an Aes Sedai successfully for quite some time. Just saying.

 

[Tehmpus]

Interesting that you would use a Chicago slang term in Sweden. "just saying"

Anyways, you seem to concentrate on the wrong point. I'm not saying that Ishamael cannot impersonate someone. In fact, I pointed out that he did a darn good job in what he did to Jain Farstrider. You don't think that Jain actually looked like Noal did you?

My point was that in the process of impersonating a famous personage like Taim, that he would have to do it exactly. A rough image would not do. He'd have to have actually seen him at some point.

Ishamael and Taim could be the same person, but it would leave a lot of unanswered questions lying about.

I'm going to stray from the topic for a second to express a wish, a hope, a requirement for the last book.

Here it is. We can NOT get a one sentence answer to some of the great mysteries involved in the books. No more "Asmodean was killed be Graendal" in the glossary. We need details. We need to understand how things happened. We will not sit around discussing these books with our friends for years, and then not get the answers. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Just saying.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I think that's precisely what we'll get ... on some things. Because there are too many threads to solve them all thoroughly - and probably because some things have never been meant to be explained in detail.

 

[Bustycops1987]

Here it is. We can NOT get a one sentence answer to some of the great mysteries involved in the books. No more "Asmodean was killed be Graendal" in the glossary. We need details. We need to understand how things happened. We will not sit around discussing these books with our friends for years, and then not get the answers. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Just saying.

It wasn't just a glossary explanation, when Graendal is speaking with Shaidar Haran in ToM he specifically blames her for killing 3 of the Forsaken. The other two being Aran'gar whom she leaves to die to Rands' balefire, and Mesaana who is defeated by Egwene (in part because of the dreamspike Perrin has brought to the tower, which was taken from Slayer who is acting on orders from Graendal in her own scheme).

There wouldn't be much else to talk about with Asmodean he was looking for some wine or some such and simply took a nasty weave to face, all of the mystery is cleared up from Shaidar Harans' statements since we know how all of the other forsaken died.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

I think the reveal of Asmodean's killer was pretty good. It was mentioned in a natural way. It shouldn't have to be said explicitly. I actually missed it when I first read it, and didn't see it until I reached the glossary. But it's all there. And it's good.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

I was pretty much looking for it as confirmation of what I'd already guessed.

Back to Taim, I think he's an up & coming dreadlord who was maybe taught tricks by Moridin. I don't think Moridin is Taim, but I definitely see the legitimacy of the argument.

 

[Tehmpus]

Bustycops, I'll respond to you, but I don't want to get away from the subject of the thread. If you feel like further discussing Asmodeon's death, let's start a new thread or ressurrect one of the other gajillion Asmodeon threads.

We had a lot of clues about Asmodeon's death prior to Towers of Midnight.

While you are correct that the blame for the death was placed on Graendal by Shaidar Haran, the how and why of the situation was never explained. Sure, you can imagine to yourself a scenario where Graendal kills Asmodeon herself, but that may not be what happened.

Look at your own examples for instance. Did Graendal kill Balthamel/Arangar/Halima? No she did not, the Dragon did. Graendal's actions were indirect. Did Graendal kill or labotamize Messana? Nope. Yet again she was blamed for her indirect involvement. She was given the use of Slayer & a dreamspike. Perrin messed up her plans by moving the dreamspike in tel'aranrhiod, then Egwene fryed Messana's mind in a battle of wills in tel'aranrhiod.

So yet again, Graendal is blamed for her indirect actions, instead of direct action. Why does Asmodeon's death have to be any different? She could have done something that enabled someone else to kill Asmodeon, OR she could have done it herself. We don't know.

What do we know? We know that making a gateway uses up alot of magical energy which can be sensed by other channellers. Even when a weave is inverted, a channeller can sense that something big just happened if not what or who did it. We also know that there were a bunch of female channelers in Caemlyn on the day that Asmodeon turned up missing. Also, Rand was there and possibly Taim from the male side. In book interviews, Robert Jordan stated that Asmodeon couldn't be transmigrated for 2 reasons. 1: the method of his death. 2: the location of where he died.

Now I'm pretty sure that there's nothing particularly special about a closet in the Caemlyn palace in terms of preventing the Dark One from bringing back Asmodeon. And, I'm pretty sure that the method is "probably" balefire since that seems to be the themed method for putting down a Chosen for good.

So basically we've had an enormous amount of conversations on the topic, and yet no real understanding of the resolution except for blame being placed on Graendal with absolutely none of the why or how of the matter.

It would be similar to skipping to the end of a mystery novel, discovering that the butler did it, but without any knowledge of how he did it, or why.

 

[Bustycops1987]

In book interviews, Robert Jordan stated that Asmodeon couldn't be transmigrated for 2 reasons. 1: the method of his death. 2: the location of where he died.

.

It's still not the mystery you're trying to make it.

Lord of Chaos Prologue:

Dark lord to Demandred: "The weak fall away. Who betrays me shall die the final death, Asmodean twisted by his weakness, Rahvin dead in his pride, he served well yet even I cannot save him from Balefire."

The implication being that the Dark lord very well could bring back Asmodean if he so desired, but its' pretty clear the Dark Lord isn't going to bring back Asmodean simply because he's a traitor and a coward, no second chances for betrayal and weakness, and all that.

Then there's Asmodeans' shock and surprise right before his death, giving the reader a very subtle yet proper hint towards it being someone he recognized and would be afraid of/surprised to see. Of course the cause of his death was left a mystery but by the time Shaidar Haran blames Graendal we're given enough to infer she quietly disposed of him in the aftermath of the battle. The rest of the darkfriends within the Aiel and their own plots and schemes all having played out as they did, don't point to anything involving Asmodeans' death and besides I think they were all dead or not in Caemlyn by that point anyways.

 

[Tehmpus]

You quoted my Robert Jordan statement, yet didn't respond to it?!?!?

Listen, there are tons of clues concerning the mystery of Asmodean's death. The problem is determining a method and reason that fits ALL the clues. You don't get to just brush off Robert Jordan and pretend that he never said that at a book signing. He gave out clues at book signings/interviews for many many years, and delighted in teasing readers.

Perhaps you should research his WOT quotes, then state your case in an Asmodean thread, not a Taim thread. I'm willing to listen to any theory, but it seems your theory is completely ignoring a clue given us directly from the original author.

Or are you trying to imply that Robert Jordan never said that? Or that he lied just to mess with some readers?

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Mod note:

I tried redirecting nicely. Please take the Asmodean talk here.

Thanks for playing. There's lots of talk there about the "how" & "where" of Asmodean's death there. Enjoy!

Back to Taim, please.

 

[CalebMSmith90]

There is no way for sure to know exactly where Taim is placed among the darkfriends or forsaken, or even that Taim is independent of the forsaken. the forsaken were capable of many extraordinary fears, it could be simple enough that Taim might be under compulsion, or some other trick up the forsakens sleeve.

 

[CalebMSmith90]

i sometimes wonder whether people we take as bad may just be mindtrapped, like Taim. Someone who seems inherently evil, but is in fact contolled by another. Like Lanfear/Cyndane

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

If memory serves, there was a scene where Moridin stroked the 2 mind traps & the women shuddered. I don't think Taim is mindtrapped or else we would have been made aware. Just my opinion. But he could be compulsed. Or just dark. Or Moridin himself. So many theories...