Was Lan raped?

Ibon Caseï

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In Malkieri culture, a young man is taken under the wing of an older woman. She tutors him, in bed and out of it, and gains a very powerful bond through that tutoring.

Lan was 15, so not really a man.. Yet in their culture they're counted as adults earlier than here. Yet the relationship was obviously very unequal, and Lan seems deeply obviously marked by that relationship years later. She also uses their previous relationship to attempt to manipulate the adult Lan.

So.. Would you call it rape?
 

Lyndo Shiranui

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Yes, definitely. Not every culture is respectable. Even if Lan was adult and he was willing, still I would consider it rape. Because they didn't care if he was willing or not.

If we evaluate this further, let's say, in that tradition girls considered adults when they are 15 and they are given a much older male tutor to teach them...sex? Now this indeed happens in our real world. Girls are forcefully getting married to much older men because they believe, girls, especially in those ages are stupid, so definitely not considered an adult, therefore they need an older husband which will teach stuff to her, like how to be an adult and sex, teaching her how to make her husband happy.
 
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Ibon Caseï

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Admins, should this maybe be moved to book discussions?
 

Melorea al'Taehor

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I'd have to say yes too. What sort of mind fuckery has gone on that a grown Lan would sit in his room because she says so? There is definitely something wrong with that whole dynamic and it's not like a consensual bdsm thing
 

Lyndo Shiranui

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Admins, should this maybe be moved to book discussions?

Don't worry Ebona Sedai, it's already in the WoT book discussion (spoiler) forum. Only people who read all the books check this forum.
 

Hal Bahalla

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I think Lan gets a second dose of forced sex after his bond passes when Moiraine dies as well.

IIRC there is some discussion of sex as “helping” a warder be “saved”. I can’t imagine Lan jumping into the bed of the the woman he was forces to go to willingly. (I can’t recall her name). Egwene makes some comment about “Let’s not tell Nynaeve that part”. Though I think she considera it later, but doesnt want to ask.
 

Keisha al'Benn

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It's Myrelle I think....that's actually what I thought this thread was about. :
And Mat, definitely something hinky between him and Tylin too....
 

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I'd have to say yes too. What sort of mind fuckery has gone on that a grown Lan would sit in his room because she says so? There is definitely something wrong with that whole dynamic and it's not like a consensual bdsm thing

Mindfuckery is the exact word for it. That's the exact word for it. Fifteen year olds cannot do consensual BDSM or whatever. I have mixed feelings on BDSM in general, but I get that that isn't pertinent.

I think Lan gets a second dose of forced sex after his bond passes when Moiraine dies as well.

IIRC there is some discussion of sex as “helping” a warder be “saved”. I can’t imagine Lan jumping into the bed of the the woman he was forces to go to willingly. (I can’t recall her name). Egwene makes some comment about “Let’s not tell Nynaeve that part”. Though I think she considera it later, but doesnt want to ask.

I also have mixed feelings about the Sea Folk wedding vows. I'm sure Jordan meant for it to be some kind of character arc brought to full circle now that it is implied that Lan has full control of his intimate life restored to him and we are to assume that Nynaeve and Lan have a loving and consensual relationship. But, I wouldn't enter into a relationship where someone was given the reins, so to speak, and I think it just... It's all very uncomfy. I respect RJ as a cultural creator and I can't try and fuss out his intent as an author, but yeah. This stuff doesn't sit so good.

Its important to include these sorts of things in your writing and your story telling but equally important if not more so important to sort of... Make it clear that what you're reading isn't supposed to be super great? If that makes sense? I'm not sure how to articulate it.
 

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They were both raped for sure, and the plot-related reasons for those events occurring were...questionable, at best...but I don't think RJ had any responsibility to make any more of a statement than he did out of it...especially considering he DID make a statement. Is it the kind of statement that a similar work would make now? No, of course not! Writers have a lot more freedom now than they did in the 80's and 90's. Modern writers can be unarguably bolder than Jordan could even dream.

However...at the time he wrote that passage (and now, too, but especially then) men were regularly told they cannot be sexually assaulted. They were laughed at for admitting they were raped. They were told it isn't possible, by men and women, their friends and LEOs who were supposed to help them alike. There was (and still is) ongoing fascination with "cougars" and "MILFs" in porn that strongly implies the older woman will show the younger man how to do things correctly. Adolescent boys assaulted by their female teachers were envied and congratulated, not supported and sympathized with...in media AND in reality. Get what I'm saying?

Basically...what Lan and Mat experienced, and how Jordan described it, is an assaulted man's reality. Jordan exposed that and wrote it exactly as it is, from the man's point of view, even, at a time when doing such a thing was basically unheard of. I was twelve when I read a Crown of Swords, and thirteen when I found the New Spring short story in that Legends anthology and I'd never encountered anything like it. It made me think about what is and is not possible, and it fundamentally altered how I think about consent.

So...maybe they're not so weird as all that after all. They just depict an uncomfortable topic that people would rather not think about.
 

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Basically...what Lan and Mat experienced, and how Jordan described it, is an assaulted man's reality. Jordan exposed that and wrote it exactly as it is, from the man's point of view, even, at a time when doing such a thing was basically unheard of. I was twelve when I read a Crown of Swords, and thirteen when I found the New Spring short story in that Legends anthology and I'd never encountered anything like it. It made me think about what is and is not possible, and it fundamentally altered how I think about consent.
Yes - pieces like these are why I really loved Jordan's work - they made me think - sometimes made me uncomfortable and had to ask myself why.

Similar to Lackey's Last Herald Mage trilogy - at the time, it was the first openly gay male protaganist in fantasy literature (to my knowledge). Having that viewpoint was really eye-opening.
 

Maianel Istor

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Basically...what Lan and Mat experienced, and how Jordan described it, is an assaulted man's reality. Jordan exposed that and wrote it exactly as it is, from the man's point of view, even, at a time when doing such a thing was basically unheard of. I was twelve when I read a Crown of Swords, and thirteen when I found the New Spring short story in that Legends anthology and I'd never encountered anything like it. It made me think about what is and is not possible, and it fundamentally altered how I think about consent.

What troubles me in the case of Mat is . . . I don't have the quote to hand, and I think I got it secondhand in the first place, but it was something from either Jordan or Harriet to the effect of, the Mat/Tylin plotline was intended to be a humorous story about sexual assault. And, uh, that's a messed-up way to approach it. I think the entire thing is unquestionably a case of Mat being raped, but I also feel like the text plays it way too much for laughs -- haha, look at Mat trying to hide from Tylin, and her leveraging her power to make sure he can't escape! -- rather than showing much sensitivity toward what he's going through.
 

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What troubles me in the case of Mat is . . . I don't have the quote to hand, and I think I got it secondhand in the first place, but it was something from either Jordan or Harriet to the effect of, the Mat/Tylin plotline was intended to be a humorous story about sexual assault. And, uh, that's a messed-up way to approach it. I think the entire thing is unquestionably a case of Mat being raped, but I also feel like the text plays it way too much for laughs -- haha, look at Mat trying to hide from Tylin, and her leveraging her power to make sure he can't escape! -- rather than showing much sensitivity toward what he's going through.
I read it as Mat trying to inject humor into an uncomfortable situation, like he is wont to do.
 

Maianel Istor

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I read it as Mat trying to inject humor into an uncomfortable situation, like he is wont to do.

I managed to track down the quote, though the link to its source is dead because that got lost in the transfer from my old Livejournal to the Wordpress version of my blog:

“RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.”

And . . . I have issues with aiming for "comic undertones" on this topic, with dealing with rape "in a humorous way." For starters, there at least used to be a big disjunct in fandom between those who looked at that plot and said "this is rape" and those who said, no, it's just a funny story about Mat being the hunted rather than the hunter -- so there was a biiiig chunk of the readership that missed the point (a chunk which may have gotten smaller over time, and in fact I hope it has). And I remember feeling really uncomfortable, not only with Mat trying to cope via humor, but the characters around him thinking the situation was hilarious. That does mirror the way many women who are subjected to assault get their fears and pain invalidated, but there wasn't a strong enough countervailing opinion for me in the text -- not even from Mat, who if memory and my notes serve, walks away thinking about how he'll miss Tylin. The trauma just doesn't get handled in a fashion that makes me feel very good about the end message.
 

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I think Lan gets a second dose of forced sex after his bond passes when Moiraine dies as well.

IIRC there is some discussion of sex as “helping” a warder be “saved”. I can’t imagine Lan jumping into the bed of the the woman he was forces to go to willingly. (I can’t recall her name). Egwene makes some comment about “Let’s not tell Nynaeve that part”. Though I think she considera it later, but doesnt want to ask.

Absofreakinglutely with Myrelle too. That was difficult for me to read. Sex is not medicine. Nynaeve for sure knew too, remember her glee after she and Lan were married, but he was still bonded to Myrelle. She knew that Myrelle could feel it through the bond every time they were together and she found it cathartic to do to Myrelle what Myrelle had essentially done to Nynaeve.

As much as it's weird to say I like rape plotlines - because I don't in general - I do find it refreshing that it's not just women in Jordan's world. In so many fantasy worlds rape is used as almost a casual plot device and almost always against women, and often it's used to develop a male character, like the victim's husband or brother. Mat's character arc mostly only develops Mat.
 
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